What's with the hand positions?

[Raptor]

I feel I can really ask this now that I'm not on spinning.com. I assume most here are JGSIs.

I see no training benefit from riding with my hands "here" versus "there." As long as the hands are on the handlebars, I don't care as an instructor or a rider. I've never heard another cyclist or a cycling coach recommend riding with your hands in a different position in order to achieve any cycling-related result. (Yes, there are the drops and hoods and aero or minor leverage issues, but they don't apply to indoor bike handlebars.)

Hands are supposed to be comfortably on the handlebars, period.

From what I know of Spinning's HP1 through X, it sure seems like a gimmick to me. Someone feel like telling me what it's all supposedly about?

Lynn

[Nipsi98]

Lynn,

There are a couple of reasons for the hand positions. Safety and comfort are two of the main ones. You want a neutral wrist in order to decrease the risk of injury. The 3 hand positions insure this.

Notice peoples (I'm talking those who don't ride outside) upper bodies while they ride (in class that is). If they are "riding the hoods" their elbows and wrists are in an awkward position and they are usually pushing into the hands causing their shoulders to push up into their ears. Very tense upper bodies. The same if their hands are in HP2 but their wrist is bent. By being in HP2 with a neutral wrist the elbows need to have a slight bend in them and a relaxed upper body is insured. If you're holding the handle bars too tightly upper body is tense and heart rate rises for no reason other than the tense body. HP2 also stops the rider from leaning too far forward which could bother backs, and decreases the amount of oxygen they can take in.

HP3 also insures the neutral wrist and helps to climb the hills. As your pushing into the pedal with the left foot you are also giving a slight pull with the right hand. If people have their hand flat against the ends there's nothing to help them if they happen to slip, and they aren't working as efficiently as they could be.

I take each case as it's presented to me. If someone is an experienced outdoor rider, I am not too worried if they are riding the hoods, but if I see a new rider out of alignment, I will correct the HP. By that same token, whenever I'm in a Spinning Room, I use the HP's and when I am outdoors, I ride the hoods.

[Raindrop]

I teach in a non-Spinning facility and therefore don't have to adhere to the prescribed hand positions. I also don't find it difficult to cue neutral wrist and body positions without the hand positions. HP1 always seemed "forced" and kind of silly (protecting your knowledge?), and HP2 works for some people, but other taller or longer torsoed people use a HP 2 1/2 and it works great for them.

New people tend to lean on the handlebars because they usually lack core strength and I don't believe making them adhere to specific hand positions will cure that. Just my opinion of course.

[flywheel]

I always disliked hand position 1. I really see no reason for it.

[catfish]

I gto along with some of the hand position stuff but not all of it. I really do not like pos 1 it does not feel good to me at all it is just too uncomfortable forme to use.

Now having said that though I am the doirector at our club and teach a training wheels ride once a month (educational ride foir first timers) i woill show pos 1 or i would not be doing my job however i do not ask people to ride in that position. if they like it and feels good to them it is fine, but i dont get wifgged out about it.

Pos 3 feels goofd for standing climbing but is a poor choice for seated work in my opinion .

pos 2 and 2 1/2 is my favorite places for my hands. The Spin bike no matter which brand is not as comfortable of fitable as our road bikes so we make due with what we have and keeping body machanics and safty in mind.
catfish

[spinnerpom]

I think HP1 is a crock...besides, there's no place to even DO HP1 on some of the new bikes, particularly the V-bike!!!

I've always been a fan of hp2.5 (yes, the one we made up) for seated climbing.

S

[AC]

I don't know if my heart and soul could take criticism of hand position 1. I don't know why more people can't find it in their hearts to allow people to assume alternative hand positions.

What has happened to our country? A person can't walk down the street in HP1 without being stared at or given funny looks.

I thought I signed up for peace, love, happiness and balance? :?:

[Raptor]

Oops, I did it again.

Challenging dogma, subverting dominant paradigms, questioning authority, speaking pragmatically, analyzing objectively, throwing wrenches into workses, opening cans of worms, tying yarn to cat tails, spoiling grandchildren (and I don't have any)...

Maybe I should change my username to "Not so innocent".

Lynn

[murphs]

More power to ya Raptor... although I don't think the plural of "works" is "workses." :lol:

[CancunCarol]

I too cue HP 2 and 2 1/2 Although HP 3 while seated does put a strain on your lower back , I have seen People that are tall in HP 3 while seated that like to ride that way. (I am not Tall :) )
I always felt that hP 1 caused a hunched over effect actually bringing up your shoulders.

[Nipsi98]

Silly me. I thought your post was asking for the reasons behind the HP's, but now that I reread your original post and your last reply to it, I see it was your attempt to bash SPINNING.

[labo]

Gee....I actually like HP1 and really miss it when I'm on a bike that does not allow it....maybe its the hype but I've found it does allow me to concentrate and focus inward!!!

I guess my spin (hehehe) on hardpositions is that there is a point where proper handpositions lead to proper body alignment....how many times have you seen people in funky hand positions and claim to you that they are comfortable that way. They may be comfortable, for now, that is....but
is it biomechanically correct or are they 'comfortable' because they are totally out of alignment and they are 'used to it...

Remember guys just cause something is comfortable for the moment does not mean its proper alignment. How many people do we see walking around with their shoulders around their ears being 'comfortable' but totally throwing their bodies out of whack...no wonder we have so many back problems!!!!

[Raindrop]

I guess I feel comfortable enough to be able to cue proper neutral body positions without contrived hand positions. If you don't, then continue to use HP1, HP2 and HP3 without considering the height and kinesiology (sp?) of the participants in your class.

[labo]

wow I feel like I'm back on the Spin forum....isn't this the Peace/Love Forum...geesh!!!

What I said is that I find HP1 to work for me and I believe it can work for the majority of the people out there....I think the set HP at a great place to start and then if necessary based on the individual they can be modified....but I have seen people riding with their hands inside out, aka fingers gripping on the inside of the of the bar (when HP3 was cued) , elbows splayed outwards....gee I'm not thinking that will work do you?????????????? THAT was my point....

[Raindrop]

Sorry Labo...apparently I was having a crabby attack last night. I am back to the peace, love and all-is-good vibe now. :wink:

Hi All:

I admit that I have been lurking here since this forum started just to see what the content and demeanor would turn out to be. I am impressed, not only with the format of it, which is really an improvement (great job Billy), but much more importantly, with the civility and even courtesy with which the members treat one another, even allowing for differences in opinion. I may register after all...

Let's promise to hold on to that while we exchange views on all aspects of indoor cycling, leaving religion and politics to other fora. We can and should be "a community" and not a group of antagonistic enemies, lashing out at others and other indoor cycling groups. We have so much more in common than we have differences.

Guest for now

[labo]

hey raindrop happens to the best of us.....PLHB.....;) labo

[Raptor]

Hi Nipsi98,

My original post was both to gather information and call a spade a spade. Having been educated on the rationale behind the HPs, I no longer consider them to be just a gimmick. Different & way over-rated based on how frequently they come up in discussions about Spinning, but not worthless.

As a result of this thread, I'm going to try to remember to cue for neutral hand positions for new riders.

Thanks for the info, everyone!

Lynn

[gonzosgirl01]

Let's promise to hold on to that while we exchange views on all aspects of indoor cycling, leaving religion and politics to other fora. We can and should be "a community" and not a group of antagonistic enemies, lashing out at others and other indoor cycling groups. We have so much more in common than we have differences.


I am so in agreement, I cannot even find a reply.

--Mandi

[Bicycle Bill]

Cycling is a full body sport. The muscles of the upper body are available, if the bike is fit properly and if the riders form allows.
Hand position one centers the rider and guides us to the top of the handle bar. Resting on top of the bar is the first gate to full muscle participation. Raising up the h-bar to allow the rider to rely on the core muscles rather than leaning on the inside of the h-bar will enable the rider to develope an upper body pathway or awareness. If the rider pushes on the rear of the h-bar a larger by-product may occure. Pushing on the inside of the handle bar not only causes trouble in the wrists, elbows, shoulders, neck, etc., but they will be pushing themselves forcefully into the saddle. The saddle becomes an opponent rather than a friend. So learning or training to rest on top of the bar not only helps the rider aquire full body form, but also and perhaps most importantly, comfort in the saddle.

[Innercycling.com]

I thought this should be a topic cause I did my homework check this link:
http://www.plhb.com/cms/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=43
it is where I derived info from "The Anatomy coloring book" byWynn Kapit and Lawrence M. Elson

It may be that a lot of people don't care or believe in the hand positions represented in the Spinning Program, but I do. I teach Spinning as an art; as it was taught to me by my teacher, Johnny G. I don't make people keep hand positions, I merely ask and show and smile with confidence on their validity and 99% respond by placing their hands in the proper position. I will not tell you you have to do anything, my friend. I am merely happy to be able to discuss things like this and thank you for responding.



The point behind 5000 to 10000 repetitions is just my perception and my progression. To perform a movement with intention and connection requires longevity and retention.



The use of three hand positions does have many safe biomechanical reasons to them as well as offering unity and form so that all may follow. Spinning is a language of movements and its interpretation can be done in any language and personality. This is best put in the fact that Spinning is taught in over 80 countries. A person traveling around the world and teach or ride with a language of movements so that all can follow with a series of visuals and not just verbal instructions. In the Spinning program, our hands are our means of non-verbal communication to our students about the terrain we are currently riding.



Now on to HP1 and HP2 and HP3 biomechanical reasons : The use of the bottom of the wrist, as in HP 1 (aka karate chop part), where the nerves are much less dense insures no damage to the Median nerve (Carpenter nerve) which supplies the anterior forearm muscles and the thenar muscles. Continuous pressure on the flat part of the wrist, as in improper HP1 and improper HP2 (carpal tunnel area), can result in some sensory deficit to fingers 1-3 and weakness to thumb movement (Carpal Tunnel Syndrome).



Cupping the top of the bars, as in improper HP3, can lead to damage of the flexors muscles of the wrist therein and activation of the forearms (Digitorum Profundas and Superficialis) which is unnecessary. The use of the thumb muscle (thenar) over the front of the bars would suffice and takes away very little power and force.



The placement of HP1,2,3 also leads to the relaxing of the upper torso, therefore, allowing most heart beats to be derived from the lower torso where the largest muscles in the body are located. I call this "the mo fat burning parts". Try this yourself: take thumbs under the bar whether in HP1 or HP2 , you will feel your shoulder muscles(Deltoids) "turn on" to support the position and again stealing heart beats from you and your training. It is actually unnatural to keep your hands here because unlike cycling you don't have to "hold on" because the bike is going nowhere.





Peace and Love and Agree to disagree

BILLY

[Bicycle Bill]

Nice.

I will also speak out in defense of HP1. I was initially drawn to Spinning as an opportunity to exercise and relieve stress at the same time. Turn on some music, get on the bike, turn up the resistance to the HR of choice, relax into the saddle, close my eyes, ride and relax. Subsequently HP1 became the most comfortable EEZ and REZ position for the reasons Billy just explained. Courtesy of my real job I already have carpal tunnel symptoms and HP1 because of the hand/wrist position is very comfortable
for 45 or 45+ minutes. In HP2 my hands and forearms gradually fall into an uncomfortable angle usually requiring me to take my hands from the bars to shake some life back into my fingers.

Thanks for the info Billy.

Just my slice of Cheeze

[spinnerpom]

OK...when I said HP1 is a crock,I meant in terms of the program...how can we push HP1 on a V-bike that doesn't accommodate it?

[AC]

There are days when I never use HP1. There are also days when I don't do a standing climb or run in HP2.

The guy (JohnnyG) invented an indoor cycling program with different hand positions and different riding positions. If you use some or all of the parts, what does it matter? I have people who use that "HP2.5" all the time and the look comfortable sitting and doing it.

Isn't it more important to just get people into the proper form for whatever it is that you are asking them to do at the time?

[megale3]

I have coulisses from riding in the iron and steel position. The handle bars on a stationary bike are about comfort while the seat is about business. It is very restrictive to say that you must have your hands here or there. I put forth that you should cue for your riders to move their hands around a bit. I also agree and was said by AC that all people are not put together the same. I have seen many that can go to the "drops" on the bars and have a nice neutral spine. If we were all the same there would be no adjustments and pop pins needed. I have to wonder on the Spinners about the hand positions cause there really is no fore/aft adjustment and it lends itself to being of certain shoulder width and arm length criteria (I really do like these bars for their size and length they fit me). I imagine that if you have someone with shorter arms that you may need to give them posture breaks from time to time so that they can relieve their lumbar, arms, neck, and shoulders. These people too should be checked that they do not move their seat foreward to make up for the reach as this puts their knee too far forward. One nice thing about the V bikes is that they have a good for aft movement-Too damn bad that those handle bars are so short and thoose grips are so hard on the hands hince my coulisses. Back scratch anyone :mrgreen:
Meg

[Todd S]

One nice thing about the V bikes is that they have a good for aft movement-Too damn bad that those handle bars are so short and thoose grips are so hard on the hands hince my coulisses. Back scratch anyone :mrgreen:
Meg

And the bad thing about the V-bike is the saddle itself. Worst design ever made in my most humble opinion.

No 'level' adjustment, so after a few months of folks who tend to ride on the nose of the saddle, the rails seem to bend until the saddle has a pronounced downward tilt. And they're so short, you have only one seating position. With a 'real' saddle, you can at least move fore and aft on the saddle to vary the pressure against your sit bones.

[megale3]

Todd why do you suppose that these people are riding on the nose of the saddle? EWWWWWWWW :shock: :mrgreen:

[Todd S]

They have that little dip where you're force to sit, and they're mounted behind the dip so your body weight tends to bend the saddle down (cheap, weak rails), which makes you slide more to the front, which makes the saddle point down some more...