simple RPE chart

[spingen]

I want to come up with a simple RPE chart for my classes. Something along the line of a 1 - 10
1 - just walked into class
2 - 50%
3 - 60 %
4 - 65%
5 - 70 % - light sweat going, still can nose breath, carry on a conversation etc
6 - 75%
7 - 80 %
8 - 85% "don't ask me to talk 'cause I can't
9 - 92 % "sucking wind"
10 - Maxed out not a good place to be.

What I'm looking for is how do you explain/coach each of those HRs if your riders don't wear monitors. My club will not supply monitors anymore, and after relying on them for one class and picking up some other classes where the riders refuse to wear them I need some catchy phrases to peak their interest while still getting across how they should be feeling. I know you all can come up with some good ideas for me.

thanks

Dru

[raptor]

When I'm trying to push my riders to 80-85% (which I arbitrarily assume to be their anaerobic threshold, regardless of where it is for the individual), I prod them every 30 seconds or so to consider adjusting their resistance while maintaining cadence. If they can work harder, or if they think they MIGHT be able to work harder, they need to add. If they know they can't hang onto their current effort, then I want them to hold off until the next time. If they're sure, then they can back off. This is during a longer song, because it takes at least a few minutes to find that knife-edge of effort.

I've taught an entire 45-minute class at LT. Not everyone was "there" but I know my outdoor/competitive riders got what they wanted. I submit that everyone with the short base-building period behind them (a month of regular workouts) can work at LT for 45 minutes.

With the race season around the corner, it's time to do that class again.

Lynn

[Lovetospin]

Spingen,
I have the same problem a only a few will wear HR monitors. I found this Zone Ride is a good way cue.

Zone 1 50-60% PRE 5-6 Easy, warm-up cool down, recovery
Zone 2 65-75% PRE 6-7 Challenging but manageable - comfortable
Zone 3 75-85% PRE 7-8 Challenging not manageable uncomfortable
Zone 4 85-90% PRE 8-9 Like you say sucking wind -breathless

I cannot take credit for this but it seems like an easy way to communicate the different efforts. :lol:

[spingen]

good suggestions, but I'm looking more for how they should be feeling, for example when I want them to be at 75% I usually say that if they would be talking, they should only be able to say 4-6 words before they would need to take a breath or two, and nose only breathing is definitely not possible.

When you ride at 75 - 85%, how do you know you're there( with out a monitor)? what do you feel? can you talk? can you breath in through your nose and out through your mouth? I need more physical clues. I've found just telling them it should feel difficult just doesn't cut it..... for some newbies, the fact that they have broken a sweat makes them think they are dying. :D

Dru

[Jonnyspin]

Spingen,

This is of interest to me too, so I have knocked up a chart :

The chart is colour coded and has %MHR, RPE, exertion, perceived exertion etc columns. I don't claim it to be perfect, but it's a pretty good start point.

MHR/RPE chart (http://www.adfc76.hemscott.net/spin/MHR%20RPE%20chart.xls)

[spingen]

Hey Jonnyspin

Great chart! It 's what I'm looking for. If I make any changes I'll let you know. :D

Dru

[Jonnyspin]

I already made some slight changes, but only to simplify and clarify it for my students....the vast majority of whom still don't have HRMs :(

[Patrick]

I agree with the first chart posted, beause that is the way it feels to me. But the formal Borg chart scaled 1-10 which he developed after finding problems with the original 6 -20 scale places 75% MHR at level 5. One of the clubs I teach at has the Borg 1-10 chart posted on the wall in two places so I accept that scale and now use it in my classes.

Pat

[spingen]

Thanks Patrick,

It's my own fault I guess that I've created this monster. There is that push to have your classes wear HR monitors, then we tell them that the numbers arbitrary, etc. That is why I'm trying to come up with a RPE chart so I can wean them away from monitors and start paying more attention to how they feel.

In this particular case however this student is overtraining and I can't seem to get her to slow down. I'm hoping by changing her parameters I can help her get the results she wants.

Dru

[spingen]

Ignore that last post----I posted it under the wrong thread-----ooops :oops:

[Jonnyspin]

I agree with the first chart posted, beause that is the way it feels to me. But the formal Borg chart scaled 1-10 which he developed after finding problems with the original 6 -20 scale places 75% MHR at level 5. One of the clubs I teach at has the Borg 1-10 chart posted on the wall in two places so I accept that scale and now use it in my classes.

Pat


I do have 5 as 75%:
Approx. MHR / Zone / Original RPE / Modified RPE / Description

75% / Aerobic Development / 15 / 5 / Strong

[Patrick]

Jonnyspin, I was not referring to your chart but the one listed in the first email. I briefly reviewed your chart and it is excellent. I'm sure I will consult it from time time as I prepare profiles and the related patter.

Continuing on this topic -- although well beyond the goals and abilities of the typical Spinning student, it appears that the more modern approach is heading towards 7 training zones rather than 5. See page 17 and following pages at

http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/PowerTrainingChapter.pdf

[AC]

In relating RPE, I find breathing effort easiest to communicate. As breathing transfers from in the nostrils into more rapid pace through the mouth and nose, it's an easier concept to grasp than "comfortable" or "uncomfortable".

The HR expressions of 85% or 75% almost immediately sends people instinctly into a math module....I find 85% is one number 1 day and a different number another day, but breathing efforts and feelings are usually communicatable.

[Todd S]

In relating RPE, I find breathing effort easiest to communicate.

AC makes a good point. Even though I've never been a big fan of the whole 'nose breathing' thing, breathing is highly underrated as an intensity indicator.

Breathing rate pretty much follows the level of CO2 in the blood returning to your heart/lungs from your working muscles. Veinous blood CO2 levels rise with exercise intensity in much the same way blood lactate levels rise (with an inflection point and steepening of the curve as the effort becomes non-sustainable or anaerobic). In many ways, developing a feel for how labored your breathing becomes is a more reliable indicator of actual, sustainable intensity than heartrate.

You guys don't do the 'talking test'? Its 1 of the basics you learn in any fitness education. If you want to know if a person is aerobic or anaerobic you just go over for a talk. If he can still answer you I don't mean 'Yeaaaaah' but I mean sort of a sentence than he is still aerobic no matter what the HRM says.

Spin-up

[bluenoser]

In relating RPE, I find breathing effort easiest to communicate.

AC makes a good point. Even though I've never been a big fan of the whole 'nose breathing' thing, breathing is highly underrated as an intensity indicator.

Breathing rate pretty much follows the level of CO2 in the blood returning to your heart/lungs from your working muscles. Veinous blood CO2 levels rise with exercise intensity in much the same way blood lactate levels rise (with an inflection point and steepening of the curve as the effort becomes non-sustainable or anaerobic). In many ways, developing a feel for how labored your breathing becomes is a more reliable indicator of actual, sustainable intensity than heartrate.

. . . what do you think of an AT test done with respiration as the criteria. Not long ago, someone I know and trust introduced our instructors to AT test which used an 80 RPM cadence as a constant, and increases in resistance every minute (after warm up, of course). The "subject" (me) was nose breathing throughout, and when nose breathing was no longer sustainable (when respiration breaks), that number (or narrow range of numbers) last showing on the heart rate moniter was taken as AT--which became the "anchor" for basing training zones.

[Raptor]

Using the "mouth breathing" threshold as the AT sounds to me to be quite low... At first thought. On second thought, maybe there is something to it.

But I can maintain an effort requiring open-mouth breathing for a very long time, and there's a decent range of effort between the point my mouth opens for air and the point I start feeling wasted.

Lynn

[Jonnyspin]

please feel free to download my chart and make suggested updates and pm/mail to me.

(I am going to go and chat to my students during anaerobic parts of my class this morning! :lol: )

[spingen]

I'm with Lynn on the open mouth breathing. Part of that is because I have allergies and a stuffy nose can play havoc in spinning. :cry:

I like the talk test as well, spin-up. I will often ask a student to talk to me during a 75-80% phase (sometimes I'll ask them to repeat Peter Piper Picked a peck of Pickeled Peppers :P ) if they can repeat it easily they know they need to work harder. (hey it works)

It's good to have different cues because what will work for some won't work for others.

Keep those cues coming!!!

Dru

[AC]

The concept of RPE is perceived exertion or perceived effort. It's the effort you use to either breathe or talk not the ability to breathe or talk.

[spingen]

Not sure I get your point AC.....can you clarify?
Dru