profiles to grow on

[fitquest]

Hi All,
I'd appreciate it if anyone has a profile to share. I'm not looking for one move, one song type profiles. I'd like a designed profile that is semi-predictable (like loops). Does anyone have anything to share?
I used to run searches on the "other" forum to get some great ideas.
Reposting successful rides would be great too.
thanks!
:D

[gonzosgirl01]

Don't know if it'll help, but I use a pretty successful pyramid. We start out with a 10-12 min. warmup hill, then move on to a 5-move pyramid, starting at :15 per move, moving to 1:00 per move. At the top I use a "running song", then we come back down (by which I mean going from 1:00 to :15 per move), recover, then do another 10 minute hill.
The 5 moves are seated flat, seated run, jumps, standing jog, standing run; adding another gear each "rung" of the ladder. HR stays around 80+% thru the pyramid.
If you're interested in the profile, email me & I can give you more specs.

--Mandi

[jala3]

This is a class favorite - I think I found it on the spinning forum before it went down. 3 loops each 8 1/2 minutes long. Terrain and timing are the constants, cadence is the variable.
After warm up:
3min seated climb
2min jumps
30sec running w/resistance
1min seated climb
1.5min standing climb
30sec seated flat ** I extended this a bit to accomidate recovery
That is the whole loop...the challenge is the cadence:
Loop 1 = 80rpm
Loop 2 = 70rpm
Loop 3 = 60rpm
Obviously resistance will increase as cadence decreases, use your judgement here, using heart rate zones helps the riders to know if their resistance is right on! Let me know if you need them.
I used mixmeister to edit the bpm for each loop so I was able to "hear" where I was cuing the cadence, was such a help to not have to do cadence checks and it helped the riders to know exactly what their goal was...of course they were all encouraged to work at their level! :wink:

[murphs]

Jala: This sounds like a great loop ride. But I have a question: Wouldn't three loops at 8.5 minutes each give you only a 25.5 minute ride? Or am I missing something here?

Thanks.

murphs

[Legspeed]

2½ minute recovery between each set + 5 minute warm + 5 minute cool = missing 15 minutes

[jala3]

Thanks legspeed, that is it...I also throw in a blast at the end if I know i can go over a little bit. After the 3rd loop we stay in our standing climb, push back up to 80rpms for 1 1/2 minutes, then increase cadence "a touch" 3x and hold each for 15 seconds - now c/d and stretch. Hope thats clear!

[murphs]

Thanks Jala and Legspeed. I'm doing this profile at my class tonight!

[jala3]

Very cool...kick some booty!

Doing the profile of somebody elses ride that night eh!?
Shows the true professionalism of the instructors out there!

Your profiles should be in your head a week before. Then supply the music. Ride it in practice and change to suit. Then give the whole ride to your students!

To take someone elses profile that day and to get music to fit in less than a day... unprofessional!

Two things: first - "guest"; log in and make yourself known!
Second: I very much do agree with "guest"- cooking up a profile this way doesn't reflect much understanding of the basic training priciples that apply for any sport, Spinning or indoor cycling included.
The profiles I've spotted on this forum don't contribute to anything, due to the fact that they run through all heart rates and other elements of a training; sprints, climbs, stops, and all in one training session??
Still: it's up to you whether you want to stick to a "fun" program or get serious about your profession - if the latter is the case, begin with reading the various books by Sally Edwards and Sally Reed, and if you fully understand its content, apply the heart rate training programs they offer.

[jala3]

If in your opinion it is so unprofessional to build upon another instructors profile, why did you even look at this thread? I still believe that sharing our ideas makes us stronger. Why can't we take these forums for what they are and stop the unnecessary critique.

[SPINFREAK]

Hi Jala3,
I totally agree with you. I thought that one of the purposes of this forum was to share ideas (rides and all). I have become a better instrutor/coach partly because of this forum. How about we stay in the lines of PLHB.

In Health, Linda

Dear Jala3 & Spinfreak: as I said - there's a lot of books written on profiles by people who understand the matter (Sally Reed, Sally Edwards & many others). But to implement "just a profile" in your lessons shows little understanding of basic training methodes. If you've become a better instructor by reading articles on this or any other forum - so be it. If I look at the general content of the articles of the forum I find this hard to believe, but as I said - so be it.
Sharing ideas is fine, but if the ideas are wrong, who's going to tell you?
Hiding behind (again, someone elses) PLHB-philosophy doesn't free you from receiving some well intended critisism...

Oh by the way Spinfreak - read your entry/subject from tuesday the 9th of march again; that's the result of bad training methods (and blindly following your customers wishes...)

Since I am the one who originally posted the profile in question on the Spinning Mad Dogg Forum, I feel the need to respond to Guest and Allterrain.

That profile was shared with many instructors by a Mad Dogg MI (Lisa Sherman Dow) who cared enough to spend an entire Saturday morning in a Continuing Education workshop. That is where I learned the profile, as well as the principles behind it. While Jala chose to post the "abridged" version of the profile, she did nothing wrong by sharing it, and she did nothing wrong by taking it when I posted it. I believe that when Lisa taught the profile to us in that CE class, that is what she intended to do--share knowledge. That is certainly what I intended to do when I originally posted it.

To call someone unprofessional for trying to use all resources at their disposal to learn from is, in one word, unprofessional. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but I feel that the purpose of these forums is not to show off what we know but to share it and learn from each other. That shows true professionalism in my humble opinion.

No one is suggesting that someone without the proper background and training take profiles off this forum or anywhere else and teach. It is assumed when the profiles are shared that we are sharing them with other knowledgeable instructors who will bring their own knowledge and flavor to the profile.

Spin on, in good health!

Oops - I forgot to sign my name. I was known on the old form as paulaspins/paulaluvstospin.

Thanks!

[quote="Anonymous"]Since I am the one who originally posted the profile in question on the Spinning Mad Dogg Forum, I feel the need to respond to Guest and Allterrain.quote]
First: which profile are we talking about? There's more than one mentioned... Furthermore: if I would attend a Formula-1 racing Master Class by Michael Schumacher it still wouldn't make me a Formula 1 driver, neither would it help me much if I would incorporate the things I learned from him while driving through the main street of the village where I live... Profiles without a specific place in a training plan = ?

[murphs]

Doing the profile of somebody elses ride that night eh!?
Shows the true professionalism of the instructors out there!

Your profiles should be in your head a week before. Then supply the music. Ride it in practice and change to suit. Then give the whole ride to your students!

To take someone elses profile that day and to get music to fit in less than a day... unprofessional!

Guest: Please e-mail me. I want to personally discuss my professionalism with you.

murphs@yahoo.com

[Legspeed]

Alleterrain,

Please show some patience. Few of us have the same privelege as you - training classes full of serious, elite athletes. There's no question that your classes demand careful and considerable preparation. I think it's commendable that you have been able to synchronize all your students' training periodization to fit your goals for the class.

For most of us, well, at least for me, classes are attended primarily by those looking for "exer-tainment" - an interlude of sweaty fun. I think you could agree that the preparation requirements for such a class is considerably less stringent.

[Raptor]

Legspeed, well said.

We're not training Lance Armstrong and the USPS racing team here. The vast majority of us are not, at least. Instead, we're getting people who typically are lucky to get themselves to the gym more than once a week. What they need is a means to get their heart rates "high" and keep them "high" in a fun environment, safely. That is the professionalism at play for most of us.

Those of you with a peloton of racers in your classes should possibly be paid appropriately, assuming you do the work of providing them a serious integrated training program with seasonal fitness peaks designed into it, as well as testing to measure progress. Last I checked, I wasn't making a living teaching my weekly class. But I am providing fully appropriate service whether my profiles are part of a seamless program, or something I ginned up the day before, or something I used last month, or something I stole from another instructor.

It occurs to me that "Guest" is suggesting a level of service expected from the typical personal trainer. They get paid more hourly, don't they?

Lynn

It all comes down to the fact that a lot of instructors are not following the simple guidelines of your JGSI manual.

Phase 1 - Learn the basics in your own training. Get yourself fit for teaching. Give yourself that foundation level of fitness and understanding the basics of the Spinning Programme.
Once you understand those and have taught what you learnt to your students then move on to Phase 2.

Advanced moves/techniques/split profiles/mind-body work/RPE etc...
Learn these in your training first then teach to your students.

Phase 3 of your manual. Heart rate zones/mind-body work/visualisation/periodization/goals and objectives etc...
Again when you have taught yourself, teach it to your students.

Taking a brand new profile with any music or with music you have specially chosen still shows that you have not ridden the profile by yourself first. If it doesnt 'flow' then it will show in your class and in your teaching.
But hey, if it worked and they had a blast with this 'new' profile you recieved the same day then great... you managed to 'wing' it well!

A true professional does learn by their own mistakes thats for sure. But a true professional will:
Choose an Energy Zone first.
Picture a piece of road or terrain in your mind to fit this Energy Zone.
Then find and use the perfect music to fit that terrain/profile.
If time allows ride the class in your training or with your training partner or collegue if possible.
If it works well then teach to your students. If it doesnt 'gel' then change it so it does!

Great debate... keep up the good work!

[SPINFREAK]

Hi Allterrain,
Please read my entry from March 9 again, you misunderstood it. All I said is I attended a class as a student. As an instructor I follow the guidelines as I was taught at orientation a few years ago. Most students love my classes, some students dislike my classes. I teach/coach the best way I know how. I do not let my students dictate what I should or should not do in my class.

In Health, Linda (SPINFREAK)

[SPINFREAK]

By the way Allterrain, I said earlier the use of this forum and the old forum "partly" helped me become a better instuctor. I read and learn from many other sources. When all is said and done I incorporate everything I have learned and put my spin on it (following basic guidlines ofcourse). I wish I could devote all my time into instructing, but I have other loves in my life. When I teach a class, my goal is to give a safe, effective and fun workout to my students. Hopefully, I was able to take their minds and their bodies to another level or place for a hour.

[spinnergirl]

hey Fit ! when I started teaching a year ago, I wanted to make sure I created safe and interesting profiles for my clients, so I used the Indoor cycling program from Sally Edwards and had a lot of success with it ! :D
it's very good, and not expensive on amazon.com !
too bad about he old forum, fethi had a really good spintistical ride posted!

I am talking about the 3 loop profile based on cadence. It was taught during a Strength Energy Zone Continuing Education seminar.

And yes, I do feel that an instructor should base his or her profiles on sound training principles. However, we learn those sound training principles by participating in CE, reading and sharing information and knowledge with others. I personally see no problem with another instructor taking a profile that was shared with me and that I in turn shared on an instructor's forum to share with his or her class. I take it as a given that he or she is a professional that will understand the principles behind the energy zone that profile was meant to teach.

Calling someone unprofessional for doing so is just plain rude. (And I mean that in the nicest way it can possibly be said -- I just know that if that comment had been addressed to me, I would have taken offense to it).

paula

[texasred]

Through these forums I have learned sooo much. I find them invaluable. I have also attended WSSC and took back with me one of the best profiles (I think) I have ever seen, I use it my classes now, although the music is not exactly the same as hers, and my students (all levels) really benefit from it.

I am also fortunate enough to live in a city where an MI for MDA lives and teaches and have taken one of her classes and "stole" her profile to use in my next class I was scheduled to teach.

I also have belonged to several different cd trees in which we not only shared music but profiles too. Some of that music I would have never known on my own or even known where to look for. Because these instructors are from all over the country, all different ages, etc. it gave me a wide assortment of stuff.

So, Guest: because I have taken advantage of all the resources available to me, am I unprofessional in doing so? I also work in advertising and we ALWAYS are looking at other's ads, sometimes we just get ideas from them and other times we copy the ad. So is that unprofessional?

When I first became an instructor I used to put my profile together, then go ride it, and sometimes I would even take one or two of my friends along to "test" it with me and give me feedback. But that's just not feasable now.

Many times I come up with not only my profile, but also my music, the day of (or even hours before) my class. And other times I have spent a lengthy amount time preparing for one profile/music. In either situation I have had classes run smooth as silk, it covers everything then at other times no matter what - it just doesn't "click".

Allterain: I have not only read books by Sally Edwards but also become Blue Jersey certified. I use lots of the profiles in her books too, as suggested in her certification classes - once again I must ask does that make me unprofessional?

The whole point I was trying to get across was that it is 'unprofessional' to use a profile that you have never used before with no music from someone else the same day you are supposed to be teaching!

Putting together profiles, terrain, music, goals, objectives etc... for each class takes time... not half a day!
If you just put together any old profile that you have never used before with no real care and concideration for the music you use, also is just 'unprofessional'.

Hey if you aint got time and you have to 'wing' it then cool. But it may show in your class!

Just my $0.02 worth!

Again, Guest, I ask you to respond to me personally, offline.

Believe it or not, your comments have hurt me. I ask for the opportunity to discuss them with you.

murphs@yahoo.com

[murphs]

Again, Guest, I ask you to respond to me personally, offline.

Believe it or not, your comments have hurt me. I ask for the opportunity to discuss them with you.

murphs@yahoo.com

I'm still with "guest" on the matter of using profiles "at random". And no, Legspeed, I don't have class full of serious, elite athletes. I do have full classes though! As for Raptor, it might be a good idea to read some of the book (and training ideas) from Lance Armstrong, as they are quite inspirational and based on regular training principles.
As "guest" already stated, all the basics are in the JGSI manual; and, funny enough, these principles apply to both serious, elite athletes and every other person who participates in the Spinning-program. (for those who teach RPM - I'm sorry, you are beyond help or rescue..).
Raptor's remark, and I quote; "What they need is a means to get their heart rates "high" and keep them "high" in a fun environment, safely" is wrong in more than one way, but describes the way a lot of instructors (and JGSI's also, I'm afraid..), build their lessons. The mistake these instructors make is that they confuse the idea of "entertaining" a bunch of sweaty people with heart rates far in the "red zone" with the Spinning-program. I'm aware that Legspeed's comments are meant to be sarcastic, but in reality, it makes me feel sorry for him. Because of the fact that he and many, many others are unwilling or unable to implement the Spinning-program the right way, it doesn't mean that everybody else who DOES take his job seriously (and I OWN the gym) is wrong! I don't mind people who want to teach these "fun & games"-classes, but I do mind if they call it the Spinning-program. See the difference?
And by the way; the main reasons for not teaching the Spinning-program the right way is plain fear of losing customers, nothing more and nothing less.

TexasRed, read my comment once again! I'm ADVISING to use the heart rate profiles from Sally Reed and Sally Edwards - and if you read a little better - I dídn't call anyone unprofessional, I said (quote);
it's up to you whether you want to stick to a "fun" program or get serious about your profession"(end quote).

As for the others; look at your excuses! "I just want to give my customers a good time" or "don't take it all so seriously" or "last time a looked at my paycheck I couldn't make a living of it" .... Come on...!

[texasred]

The whole point I was trying to get across was that it is 'unprofessional' to use a profile that you have never used before with no music from someone else the same day you are supposed to be teaching!

Putting together profiles, terrain, music, goals, objectives etc... for each class takes time... not half a day!
If you just put together any old profile that you have never used before with no real care and concideration for the music you use, also is just 'unprofessional'.

Hey if you aint got time and you have to 'wing' it then cool. But it may show in your class!

Just my $0.02 worth!

As I said before, even with the best preparation it may come across as an unprepared class. I would never recommend an instructor going in blindly with a profile they pulled off the forum with no music planned out, etc. But I do think with experience and time we get faster and better at putting profiles and music together. It's a creative mix, just like in the advertising business. but then there are times in that business as well when you could have all the time in the world to come up with something fresh and creative and you ain't got a thing! Then your boss comes in and asks for something in 10 minutes and it's the best work you've ever done.

[texasred]

TexasRed, read my comment once again! I'm ADVISING to use the heart rate profiles from Sally Reed and Sally Edwards - and if you read a little better - I dídn't call anyone unprofessional, I said (quote); it's up to you whether you want to stick to a "fun" program or get serious about your profession"(end quote).

Here's your statement:
[quote=Allterrain]Dear Jala3 & Spinfreak: as I said - there's a lot of books written on profiles by people who understand the matter (Sally Reed, Sally Edwards & many others). But to implement "just a profile" in your lessons shows little understanding of basic training methodes.

I don't just tear out a profile from one of her books and go by the seat of my pants. I am a huge andvocate of heart rate training and safety. I have packed classes too. I convinced about 80% of my riders to purchase heart rate monitors and USE them, and use them correctly, not just watch how high they can go. I do however want them to have fun. And that has nothing to do with attendance numbers in class. Why would anyone want to invest any time and/or money into exercise if they didn't enjoy it? Speaking from personal experience, I know I became successful with my life long weight loss battle when I finally found something that I enjoyed doing.

Good for you TexasRed, you're halfway there!

[BoiseSpin]

Hi,
Thanks for sharing the profile. The words of "attack" that followed are just plain sad.
Used it today, class loved it. Will use it again.
Peace,
Dorian

Nothing is "said & done" BoiseSpin; it was not an attack, it was an attempt to try JGSI's and other indoor cycling instructors to take a long hard look at the way they handle the Spinning-concept. Whether your class loved the profile is not really important;you could have done some stand-up comedy or juggled with balls today, and they would also have "love it". Just don't call it Spinning, but call it "BoiseSpin's indoor cycling circus" or something like that. If you're a JGSI, got your certification, then stick to the program, it's as simple as that. If there are MI's or Johnny G himself who don't agree with this statement, let me know and I change my ways...

[texasred]

Good for you TexasRed, you're halfway there!

Halfway there? You want to explain...

[texasred]

If you're a JGSI, got your certification, then stick to the program, it's as simple as that.

What part of the program are we not "sticking to"?

[jala3]

Allterrain, I guess we could only hope to aspire to your level of expertise at delivering the perfect Johnny G ride each and every time you teach your class. The members of your facility are very fortunate. What I do hope is that your method of conversing with said members is a little more respectful you do here.

[BFSpin]

Yeah, what Jala said...
Allterrain, while you may be experienced and knowledgeable, your delivery could use some work. There is simply no need to be mean-spirited in a healthy debate.

Play nice and we all might get to play a little while longer...

Beth

[jala3]

Whether your class loved the profile is not really important
What!!! Then why do they come back?! Maybe I'm totally off base...I always hope that my riders will enjoy or even "love" their ride.

[gonzosgirl01]

Well, although the "other" forum is dead & gone, its spirit seems to want to come back to life here ...

Allterrain, few words of wisdom: everyone's a hero - in their own mind.

I usually only lurked at spinning.com b/c of the condescending attitudes some people carried with them. Over here, it has been a wonderful mix of JGSIs & other certs, all playing together, respecting, getting along. I'm loving it!

Please don't pee in our playground. :oops:

--Mandi

[Legspeed]

everyone's a hero - in their own mind.


I'm a legend in mine! In fact, the older I get, the faster I was.

[SPINFREAK]

Allterrain, I have full classes too! :D

[Christian spinner]

Allterain~
I would think a person of your profession would only seek to uplift others. At the GYM that you so boastfully said you OWNED do you treat members and employees with respect? I would hope so. And don't you want people to treat you with respect? Respect is earned. Don't deny yourself. You have offended people here. You have a lot of helpful advice but your slamming the people down with it. And your not making yourself look good. First impressions are everything. Say what you have to say with respect. Reread your statements. They're not nicely said. I hear EGO, EGO, EGO. I am better than you! Sorry, nut I beg to differ. The MI"s don't act like that if they did we would never go to them .
I think we went through the same training as you did. Right? Some of our members can only come to certain classes because of time. They all have the same goal, to lose weight and be healthy. If we worked at a specialty club or trained individually, then we can really create a strong periodized training program. It's not going to happen in a gym per se.
I never want to learn from an egotistical name calling person. My ears get shut and A person like your displaying only makes walls come up. Why should I listen to you? I would much rather have someone encourage me to learn and to be a person worthy of learning from. Remember, just when you think you stand you fall. And you never want to fall ALONE. Again, you have good advice just say it nice. Hey that rhymns.
We all want to teach safe classes. We don't live in a perfect world.
Keep riding and looking up!
I think we're all doing the best we can. Raptor hope your feelings weren't too hurt :roll:
Christian Spinner

[Christian spinner]

Guest at the top who had such unpolite things to say, make yourself known. I think I know who you are. Why not share? sense your sharing already. I say that tongue and check. Nothing is worse than someone throwing stones and you can't seem to find them. Your not scared are you? 8) It would be nice to know who you are. Just curious.
Keep riding and looking up!
Christain Spinner

[Raptor]

My feelings don't get hurt. (Problem or solution, good or bad? You decide. But don't worry about *my* feelings.) I think a little testiness here and there makes a good discussion better. Positions strongly held, defended and tested result in a better "product" of the discussion: a deeper understanding for all, if only of the other position.

I do want to make it clear that it's not all about the money. But what do your clients want from you? A structured training program with high volume but regular "recovery" workouts? I think very few gym members want that. Well, they might WANT it but can't squeeze it into their lives. Very few are competitive enough that they work out often or hard enough to need scheduled recovery workouts. Most people get their recovery during the 2-3 days between gym visits. If you see your riders 5-6 times a week, great! Give 'em a plan. We can all do that. But if you don't see them that often, how do you know what they're doing the other 3-6 days of the week? Giving a 2-3 times per week exerciser a recovery ride is NOT giving them what is best for them. Probably not what they want either.

That's what I meant with my point about personal trainers versus group exercise instructors. We are not asked to take over our clients' exercise programs. (At least not at my gym.) That's more responsibility and more authority. Trainers study and practice the whole-life issues of structured training and motivation. They have more expertise and a role that I view as different from us group exercise instructors. I see our (group instructors) role differently from some few, obviously. That's okay, but I hope I've explained why.

Group exercise instructors (generally) should simply provide an enjoyable workout for those gym members who choose to partake. The majority of attendees are "average" exercisers, or there's no majority. So mostly we give one-size-fits-all classes. I tend towards intensity while explaining to serious exercisers that they need to moderate their own intensity. It's hard to exercise too hard, you know, and I want to make sure that those who want a hard workout get the opportunity to have one.

I think Spinning has an admirable goal but an unrealistic one. I think it's great but only for those few who can be benefited by it. You hard-working JGSIs with thorough plans and hard-working frequent attenders, keep doing what you're doing. But don't be so arrogant as to criticize the rest of the world for not doing it. We're doing our job too.

(And that means snagging a new, fresh-for-you profile and giving it a whirl in a class is perfectly fine if you know what you're doing.)

Lynn

Back again... Texas Red, I can't ask your questions, because they are not yours. You asked what part of the program WE are not sticking to, which means I've got to answer the questions of all the contributors on this forum item. Then: "Christian Spinner"; the fact that I mentioned that I OWN the gym was to make clear that is is very well possible to stick to the program, don't give in to whimsy excuses and STILL have full classes that have a good time - while training according to the basic training principles. You state that your members all come for the same goal
"to lose weight and be healthy". I guess we've got different manuals, but then again, we don't live by the same book either. The Spinning-program is NOT about losing weight, and the way most instructors teach the program (as I've had confirmed many times in this forum already..) will NOT contribute to a better health. You're way off and the fact that you use your religion as an argument here doesn't work for me. Which was definitely NOT meant disrespectfully, before we get in an argument on that. I just think that mixing even the smallest bit of religion in ANY discussion is a bit tricky.
And then Raptor - But what do your clients want from you? I quote:
"A structured training program with high volume but regular "recovery" workouts? I think very few gym members want that". And then you dribble on a bit which is summed up by the conclusion that you probably give these member a nice, high intensity workout, from which they can "recover" in the days that they don't go to the gym. Well, I would like to stay polite in this discussion, but these remarks make very clear that you haven't got a clue what the Spinning-program is about. Well, you're already filling this in for me when you state, and I quote once again:
"I think Spinning has an admirable goal but an unrealistic one. I think it's great but only for those few who can be benefited by it. You hard-working JGSIs with thorough plans and hard-working frequent attenders, keep doing what you're doing. But don't be so arrogant as to criticize the rest of the world for not doing it. We're doing our job too". Well, that sums it up, doesn't it?
To come back once more on "Christian Spinner"'s remark about my attitude and the MI's, he states: The MI"s don't act like that", if they did we would never go to them". In this you're absolutely right. Each time I attend one of the JGSI-courses I'm amazed by the patience and the fact that they still are so NICE to the JGSI's, even though they probably know that the minute these instructors finish the course, a whole lot of them will do exactly the opposite of what they've learned in the course. I wish I had that kind of patience in me, but alas.
To conclude this discussion (from my end at least..) it has become quite clear to me that the Spinning-program is followed pretty "loosely", to say the least. Despite the fact that everybody seems to be in awe of Johnny G and become very, very nervous when something is said about the man, and despite the fact that there are some real good MI's, it has also obvious that the majority of the JGSI don't care too much about the program. Which can only lead to the conclusion that it is probably better for me to leave the program and stick to the basic training principles, than stay in the program as a JGSI and end up like a number of contributors on this forums item.

[Steph]

Allterrain, you're a real asshole. I've never been to this forum before so I don't feel bad in telling it like it is, and I won't be back. Too much attitude around here.

For the real professionals here who love what they do and make sure their students have a fun, effective workout, kudos. I'm sure your classes are full, too.

[spin-up]

allterrain, I'm really looking forward to meeting you and talking with you on saturday, especially after reading the above...

take care, CC

[Christian spinner]

Allterrain~
When did my religion come in? I never brought it up. Hopefuly your not offended by my signature. I never discussed my religion. Your reading into things. Don't police me. I don't need your help! I am just saying it like it is. 8) Raptor, I know you can handle it . But just want you to know that I agree with what you have to say I guess that makes me unprofessional and dumb too. Sorry Allterrain but that is how your coming accross. I don't hold Jonny G up high. I think he is a man who started a great indoor exercise program for the gym. For everyday people who might have time to fit in a workout. Do you think that people can lose weight on this program? I think so. Have a great day buddy! :D
Keep riding and loooking up!
Christian Spinner

Allterain,
A piece of advice for you....get over yourself, then come back to this forum. Perhaps when you're able to offer constructive comments, rather than the nasty little barbs you currently offer up.
MB[/b]

quote: To conclude this discussion (from my end at least..) it is probably better for me to leave the program and stick to the basic training principles, than stay in the program as a JGSI and end up like a number of contributors on this forums item.

[tomslounge]

quote: To conclude this discussion (from my end at least..) it is probably better for me to leave the program and stick to the basic training principles, than stay in the program as a JGSI and end up like a number of contributors on this forums item.

I'm not an instructor, and I don't "play one on TV" - but I do know about forums.

Everyone take a deep breath, and then exhale .... ah ...

If you're new to forums, and threaded discussions, disagreement is normal in these kinds of venues.

First, I didn't see the original posts as necessarily threatening or mean spirited. Passionate, but not mean. Passion is OK - please be passionate!
Passion is normal.

Often a passionate statement or writing by someone may come off with a tone that wasn't necessarily meant as "mean", but sounds that way when read as plain text. Try to "hear" the post with a voice, not just plain text.

Additionally, passionate people have to learn what "dispassionate debate" is about. One side throws down a strong statement, something they feel is definative about their view. Now, they aren't necessarily trying to offend.
They just know that the pen is mightier than the sword.

Newbies need to build thick skin, and learn to simply reply with equal reparte, passion, and realize the "court" of forum opinion will hear both sides and the thread evolves.

Rudeness, while not necessarily efficient, or the best method - may - appear in the posts. This is the concept of free speech. I wouldn't recommend rudeness, but to understand free speech, we have a tolerance.

So go for peace love happiness and balance, but realize some people may not be as evolved and their rudeness may come through. Just ignore it or challenge it, but don't confuse "spirited debate" with rudeness. A good slam-dunk is awesome!

And don't stomp off and leave the forums if you find a post to your dislike. Respond in logical thought out posts that make your side of the case and make your challenger prove their point.

Enjoy! Debate!

Tom

The whole idea of this forum is to debate, discuss, offer opinions and talk about anything health and fitness related.
It was also put together by Billy (who is a beautiful, caring and sharing man and drives a cool VW camper!) so that people can be frank and honest about any subject they choose.
If anybody doesnt like the comments expressed from others and are name calling because they dont like what they hear, I feel it's these people that are being rude and unprofessional not the ones who tell what they truly feel.

Allterrain... keep doing what your doing.
I'm outta here... ditto.
Steph... learn some manners.

This is a damn fine forum. Speak your mind!

[CancunCarol]

Last I looked this forum is called "Indoor Cycling" Not Spinning,
Re Action, Reebok cycle,Kaiser...... just the generic name Indoor Cycle.
Bashing Instructors for not Sticking to what some people percieve as the ONE AND ONLY program Should have been left on the Forum that was sponsered by Spinning.
In My opinion some People put all of the energy they use to tear others down into say maybe a sport that they can compete in instead of ripping on people that are teaching on a bike that goes nowhere.
How does it feel to be better then all of us ? :twisted:

[texasred]

Is "Allterrain" one and the same with "I'm outta here"? After re-reading the posts in this thread I realized there is no more "Allterrain", but replaced with "I'm outta here". I would just like to know, before I possibley address the wrong person with my comments.

[spinnergirl]

I would think so Texas, cause the last time I "conversed" in that matter :cry: with this individual, (see rythym baby), he erased all his posts after that ...
so, my guess, same person.

[megale3]

AWWWW the old bait and switch routine. Must be a used cars saleman :D

:P Don't sweat the petty and pet the sweaty
Meg

[Legspeed]

AWWWW the old bait and switch routine.

One thing is certain, Alterrain (or I'm Outa Here) is most definitely a master baiter

[guest]

Hi
I am still one of those lurking and try to size up the tone of this site, well designed by Billy and attracting a lot of interesting people and discussions. I was very encouraged when it began that it would be much less attack dog oriented when the occasional honest difference of opinion arose and was about to bit the bullet, register and try to contribute as best I could. This last bit of ad hominem attack by one of the members on another has given me cause to pause again.

I really like Cancun Carol's admonition that this is a COMMUNITY forum of indoor cycling and not just Spinning or any other body. I am much too long in the tooth to become a true believe for MDA or anyone else, despite the fact that I have gone to the trouble and expense of getting Star 3 rated (no big deal that's for sure). I like aspects of the program very much but the SIM is not my Bible or Koran. I admit to being eclectic and like to cherry pick what I like where I find it, based on my own experience and background. I don't know Johnny but I assess him from afar as a very adept businessman and commend him for that as well as his personal commitment to a preferred lifestyle and belief system. As for embracing the philosophy whole hog, I have done well managing my own life and securing my own values for many years, thank you very much.

Can we all commit to treating one another fairly and abstain from personal attacks whether we ar JGSI or any other certified? I just do not have the time or inclination to sweat what I think is the small stuff. My approach is to provide safe and effective training for people across the board and if that means mixing zones a bit or recognizing that not everyone wants periodization or heart rate monitors, rigid hand positions, using music to pace cadence or not, etc. etc. that is what I will do. I don't call what I do Spinning and I do not own a Spinning franchised facility, by choice. I admit to being an iconoclast.

But I also have no ill will toward anyone or any wish to call them names when they have diametrically opposed views. Before I get attacked for hiding behind anonymity of "guest", I was Kestel Rider in the old site and I am "Len" on the ACE if anyone wants to look.

So, as one who wants to join the forum and contribute to it in a positive manner without being attacked for differing from someone's unbending adherence to one program or another, let's see if we can pledge to one another that our treatment will be fair and devoid of personal anger. How about it?

[jala3]

Very nicely stated...

[texasred]

Well said Kestel Rider. I couldn't agree with you more.

[SPINFREAK]

Kestel Rider, nicley put....

In Health, Linda

[BFSpin]

Hi, Kestrel -

Good to see you; great points. Hope you decide to jump in and play!

Meg and Leg, thanks for the grins :mrgreen:

Beth

Yes Kestrel - I agree!

Welcome back.

paulaspins

[guest]

Signed my entry with "I'm outta here" punched some "wrong buttons" and could't log in anymore under my username!
Tomslounge - thanks for your words - at least one person who understands the rules for debat. Legspeed - nice pun - must have cost you some thinking, what?
Kestel - there's still a contradiction in your message - you can't provide safe and effective training for people across the board and mixing zones a bit or recognizing that not everyone wants periodization or heart rate monitors - it's either one thing or the other..

Allterrain

[rindin' high]

I, too, am tired of the "bashing". I am all for helping one another,,,not bashing. I'm all for opinions, not bashing. I'm all for the melting pot of instructors, not just JGSI.

My recommendation is to ignore the ones that are truly offensive. :D
Do not respond to them. :)
Do not play in their sandbox, as you may become pooh too! :lol:

I for one will not respond to these individuals, too much energy going in a negative direction.

[guest]

"Playing in their sandbox" beat the hell out of sticking your head in the sand...

Allterrain

[tomslounge]

Signed my entry with "I'm outta here" punched some "wrong buttons" and could't log in anymore under my username!
Tomslounge - thanks for your words - at least one person who understands the rules for debat. Legspeed - nice pun - must have cost you some thinking, what?
Kestel - there's still a contradiction in your message - you can't provide safe and effective training for people across the board and mixing zones a bit or recognizing that not everyone wants periodization or heart rate monitors - it's either one thing or the other..

Allterrain


Free speech is like electricity. Some people get shocked by it, and others know how to use it to light up a dark room.

;)

-t-

[guest]

Thanks Tom...

Allterrain

[murphs]

I, too, am tired of the "bashing". I am all for helping one another,,,not bashing. I'm all for opinions, not bashing. I'm all for the melting pot of instructors, not just JGSI.

My recommendation is to ignore the ones that are truly offensive. :D
Do not respond to them. :)
Do not play in their sandbox, as you may become pooh too! :lol:

I for one will not respond to these individuals, too much energy going in a negative direction.

I'm with you Rindin.

There are many ways to make a point -- and yes, do it with passion -- without resorting to unprovoked personal attacks.

I'm amused by those who use the "free speech" argument to justify saying whatever they please, regardless how it hurts people.

Tom: Your site is supposed to about peace, love, happiness and balance. Funny I don't feel any of that coming from you.

[guest/allterrain]

I've read an re-read all my entries and haven't been able to find a single thing that could be offensive to anyone. There were no personal "attacks", in some cases I referred to statements made by other forum-users, which is quite a difference. I do find a lot of love of "peace, love, balance & happiness" statements on this forum, but it looks to me that they're only used as an excuse for "not knowing or nor doing" any better. The only "bashing" I've found, was directed at me, I didn't call anybody names, or accused them of "beeing arrogant", "boastfull", "mean sprited", etc. etc. Which is OK with me, as long as it keeps the discussion open.
I've used arguments and plain basic knowledge - the ones that responded tried desperately to hide behind each others back and weak excuses, clinging together like a bunch of chickens when they smell a fox....

As for Tom; your remark lighted up my day! - thanks again Tom, I think you stand for something good! I'm sorry if you get dragged down by this.

And for the rest, JGSI or not, please keep responding - and for any intelligent questions, here's my E-mail adress: sportschooltexel@texel.com

Allterrain

[texasred]

I've read an re-read all my entries and haven't been able to find a single thing that could be offensive to anyone. There were no personal "attacks", in some cases I referred to statements made by other forum-users, which is quite a difference. I do find a lot of love of "peace, love, balance & happiness" statements on this forum, but it looks to me that they're only used as an excuse for "not knowing or nor doing" any better. The only "bashing" I've found, was directed at me, I didn't call anybody names, or accused them of "beeing arrogant", "boastfull", "mean sprited", etc. etc. Which is OK with me, as long as it keeps the discussion open.
I've used arguments and plain basic knowledge - the ones that responded tried desperately to hide behind each others back and weak excuses, clinging together like a bunch of chickens when they smell a fox....

As for Tom; your remark lighted up my day! - thanks again Tom, I think you stand for something good! I'm sorry if you get dragged down by this.

And for the rest, JGSI or not, please keep responding - and for any intelligent questions, here's my E-mail adress: sportschooltexel@texel.com

Allterrain

You're kidding, right? First, you state how you agree with "Guest" who started this whole mess by calling anyone who borrows a profile - unprofessional. Hmmm... that's not offensive.
Quote "for those who teach RPM - I'm sorry, you are beyond help or rescue.." - last I looked this site was Indoor Cycling - NOT JGSI Spinning exclusive, don't bash someone else because they're not JGSI.
Quote from you, "Good for you TexasRed, you're halfway there!" I asked you to explain what you meant by that comment and to what part of the program we were not sticking to and your response was you cannot answer my questions, because they are not mine? WHAT?! I'm asking you again the same two questions, and they are my questions.

BTW: I don't use any of that "peace, love, balance & happiness" statements as an excuse for "not knowing or nor doing" any better.

I did respond to what you had to say, but I NEVER "tried desperately to hide behind each others back and weak excuses, clinging together like a bunch of chickens when they smell a fox...." If that were the case Allterain, please point it out to me.

[jala3]

Allterrain, I too went back and reread the last few of your posts. JGSI or not(which I am) I think some things need to be addressed. You stated that the spinning program is not about losing weight and being healthy, and in that you are right. but the members that attend my classes are there for those exact reasons. In addition to the 2-3 cycle classes they may take a kickboxing class, a body toning class, a boot-camp class. I do feel that it is unrealistic for ME to set up a training program for them when I have no control over what they will do for the rest of the week. Secondly you stated that you OWN the gym where you teach, thus you must have a well-balanced Spinning schedule. This is not a luxury for me, therefore most of my profiles are interval. Depending on the fitness levels of my participants I'll have different expectations for different riders. Of course if we have new riders I keep them in endurance.
If you look at the first page of your SIM Johnny states:
"...I realized that the bicycle was an incredible tool to help individuals of all ages and levels of ability achieve THEIR goals of being fit and healthy."

[guest/allterrain]

Hi Red: I agreed with "guest", as you could have read, that "cooking up a profile this way doesn't reflect much understanding of the basic training priciples that apply for any sport". I didn't call anyone unprofessional. RPM is a employers concept, solely based on interval training. See my point later in this message.
For your two questions, which I couldn't answer because I got locked out of the forum (and when I returned to the forum I totally forgot about them)- with "halfway there" I meant that you took the time and trouble to read books on heart rate profiles. But to apply a profile at random, wheter it was from a book or just from a forum, is just half the story. That's what I meant by it.
As for which part of the program (or any other serious training regime) the ones who responded to my messages didn't stick to; I'm pretty sure, also based on their entries in the forum, that most of their lessons are interval, as you can read in the entry from Jala3. So to answer both questions at once; he states very clearly "This is not a luxury for me, therefore most of my profiles are interval" and "of course if we have new riders I keep them in endurance". Read it again - "Most of my profiles are interval" - and that's the case with most indoor cycling/spinning/whatever instructors. Well, this might come as a shock to you, but "mostly" interval will do absolutely NOTHING for someone's health - they will sweat, they will feel happy (due to an overload of endorphine...) but it will do NOTHING for their aerobic base - it's more likely that it will do them more harm than good!
And that's what I mean with "not sticking to the program"- a normal training regime should consist of at least 75% endurance whether you a first-timer or Lance Armstrong himself, and only people who come to your classes at least 3 times a week should add interval and strength. This is not something I've cooked up, but just basic knowledge! So when I look at the profiles presented in this forum, and see that they run through al HR-zones and include everything from sprints to running with resistance to standing climbs, all without even bothering to indicate the heart rate, I think I can draw the conclusion that "the program", wheter it's JGSI or anything else, is not exactly "followed to the letter". And if you don't believe me, whip out a book on training, read it and THEN tell me I'm wrong. And even when ALL the instructors in the whole world stick together and keep on teaching interval after interval after interval, it won't change the basic principles of training whether you like it or not, and wheter it can be applied in the center where you work, and wheter "the client" likes it or not. If you teach your classes this way, you're living on a lie.

[Todd S]

Well, this might come as a shock to you, but "mostly" interval will do absolutely NOTHING for someone's health - they will sweat, they will feel happy (due to an overload of endorphine...) but it will do NOTHING for their aerobic base - it's more likely that it will do them more harm than good!
And that's what I mean with "not sticking to the program"- a normal training regime should consist of at least 75% endurance whether you a first-timer or Lance Armstrong himself, and only people who come to your classes at least 3 times a week should add interval and strength.

Wow. A little decaf might be in order.

Agree with most of what you're saying, but I have a question. In the context of the Spinning program and the one, two, or three class a week participant; won't fitness stagnate on a steady diet of moderate intensity? If a one or two time per week Spinner is moderately fit and fully recovered at the start of each workout, how will a forty five minute interval class harm them and/or not contribute to his/her aerobic fitness? As long as we're talking 'Training 101' with a regular but only two or three times per week Spinning participant, training duration is limited (45 minute classes for the most part) and frequency/volume is limited (we're only talking 1.5 to 2.5 hr training weeks). The only variable that can realistically be manipulated is training intensity. Again back to 'Training 101'... the SAID principle - Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demands. Isn't '75% Endurance' for folks who can easily complete a Spinning class yet only put in limited training time each week only producing folks who can only ride at moderate intensity for short (45 minute) periods. Where's the adaptive stress coming from?

The only thing 'magical' about moderate intensity is that it allows the athlete to increase duration and volume. If you're not providing any adaptive stress by increasing frequency or duration, a steady diet of moderate intensity will soon be a waste of their time.

The old coaches saying... "Train slow to race fast."
Translation... Train slow to train long, train long to race fast.
Corollary... If you can't train long, training fast is the next best thing as long as you can fully recover between training sessions.

[Raptor]

Interval training also provides more EPOC. Any reasonably fit person can benefit from it, whether they're a well-trained competitive athlete looking to boost top-end performance OR a casual weight loser. Endurance is generally for new exercisers, where "new" implies someone needing a solid base, or trained exercisers looking to improve endurance. 45 minutes of endurance work is valuable for those who want to have 45 minutes of endurance. That's a small portion of exercisers.

Lynn

[guest/allterrain]

Hi Todd,

Thanks for your response.

As I stated and you quoted: "a normal training regime should consist of at least 75% endurance". The rest is reserved for interval/strength. Mostly intervals (see below), which is pretty "common practice", will do more bad than good.

Then - the SAID principle doesn’t stand alone! The first principle in training is OVERLOAD. If you want to intensify your training, first apply a raise in the NUMBER of workouts, then the DURATION, and (last) INTENSITY.
If you start with the latter (by adding high intensity/interval workouts), you surely apply “stress” to one’s training! - And run the risk of destroying one’s aerobic base!

The adaptive stress in endurance training can be derived from “playing” with the frequency, duration and intensity of the workout. (not just the first two elements as you mentioned..) As I stated, for someone who joins your class 3 times a week, 1 interval/strength workout is enough to intensify their training, plus you’ve got endless possibilities to increase the intensity of your endurance lessons.

The SAID is mostly about the fact that you’ve got to train specific to perform better in your sport – in other words, as a cyclist, you’ve got to cycle… Swimming 4 times a week won’t make you a much better cyclist...
Furthermore, SAID is also about training for the specific duration of the workout/event/race. It won’t do a cyclist much good to train 200 kilometers 5 times a week if he only performs in short-distance races.
But since the average indoor cycling adept trains anywhere between 1 to 5 times a week, it certainly won’t do him/her much good if every workout turns out to be an interval session. And the normal principle that you’ve got to BUILD and KEEP UP your aerobic base still remains, and to keep your aerobic base, you still need to train 70% of your time in the “endurance” zone.

If you would perform ONLY endurance workouts, you won’t be able to cope with changes in pace, if you perform ONLY interval workouts, you won’t be able to build or keep up an aerobic base. So if you’ve got a “one-timer” he/she will still benefit more from 1 endurance training than from 1 interval, as he/she never will get enough aerobic base to start from anyway!

As for your corollary; that’s about the same as stating that when you’re standing halfway in a freezer, and the other part of your body is on fire, you’re comfortably warm…

As for raptor, basically the same thing; I never denied that someone cannot benefit from interval training, but not without an aerobic base, which you cannot build/keep up if it’s not trained. This happens very, very, very much. Look at your own lessons and see how many endurance sessions you’ve got compared with strength/interval sessions..!

As for the weight loss – you won’t lose much weight in a indoor cycling workout that stretches for 45 minutes tops, including the warming up and the cooling down, unless you raise the frequency (very much..).
Endurance is NOT "generally for new exercisers", and everybody needs an aerobic base! Read the above. And if you’ve got only a small portion of your exercisers coming in for improvement of their endurance capabilities, I wonder what the rest comes in for?

What struck me during the last few months of teaching was how a lot of students took a lot of classes, but still keep high heart rates. Rest HR didn't go down. So I advised them to take more endurance training (spinning, but also power walk, running, all other sports they do, try to stay more in 75% range). We set up training programms. And now for quite a few of them finally average HR comes down slowly. I agree with Allterrain (on this) that first get your base right and THAN work on performance improvement.

This includes however that you will have to work on being more of a personal trainer than just being the spinning instructor. For those of you who have to consider commercial aspects: this will also build up long term commitment with your customers!

spin-up

[allterrain/guest]

I almost forgot! EPOC = excess post exercise oxygen consumption is a way of measuring ones recovery capablities, it's a it far-fetched to include this in the discussion when even the basics are already a problem..

[Legspeed]

I am once again reminded of the sagacity and wisdom of Robert Heinlein's adage: Never try to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of one's time and annoys the pig.

[guest/allterrain]

He also said: "writing is not necessarily something to be ashamed of, but do it in private and wash your hands afterwards...."

Allterrain

[guest/allterain]

Hi Legspeed, liked this one as well; "In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few". (quotation by
Shunryu Suzuki)

[Todd S]

I almost forgot! EPOC = excess post exercise oxygen consumption is a way of measuring ones recovery capablities, it's a it far-fetched to include this in the discussion when even the basics are already a problem..

If I can speak for him, I believe he was referring to EPOC in the context of elevated metabolic rates above resting levels post exercise.

[Todd S]

Then - the SAID principle doesn’t stand alone! The first principle in training is OVERLOAD. If you want to intensify your training, first apply a raise in the NUMBER of workouts, then the DURATION, and (last) INTENSITY.
If you start with the latter (by adding high intensity/interval workouts), you surely apply “stress” to one’s training! - And run the risk of destroying one’s aerobic base!

And the normal principle that you’ve got to BUILD and KEEP UP your aerobic base still remains, and to keep your aerobic base, you still need to train 70% of your time in the “endurance” zone.

As for raptor, basically the same thing; I never denied that someone cannot benefit from interval training, but not without an aerobic base, which you cannot build/keep up if it’s not trained. This happens very, very, very much. Look at your own lessons and see how many endurance sessions you’ve got compared with strength/interval sessions..!


Two questions...

If the average participant is limited to 2 or 3 forty five minute sessions per week, how do you increase fitness with limits on frequency and duration?

Define 'aerobic base' and the mechanism for its destruction with high intensity.

[Raptor]

Allterrain,

I equate "new exerciser" with someone who doesn't have an aerobic base. If there's a distinction you think I'm missing please point it out. When LANCE Armstrong takes a couple months off from his active racing schedule, his base goes away or weakens, and he needs to do endurance to re-build it. Same with anyone who's been away from exercise for a long-enough time.

EPOC is a means of "extending your workout" to get sloppy with the science. The body doesn't experience the elevated metabolism from a strictly endurance or recovery ride. Going intense by your standards builds a metabolic debt that your body repays over subsequent hours. For an overweight exerciser (again, an aerobic base is assumed), this is very valuable.

I don't mean to diss endurance or recovery, they are very useful and required for all. But to schedule them into indoor cycling classes is dubious because few exercisers work out frequently or intensely enough to really benefit from a lower-intensity class. New exercisers get their base outside the cycling room OR by taking it more easy during intense classes, and most of our riders get their recovery between classes. Endurance and recovery rides are therefore redundant. For the majority.

Lynn

[Meg3]

If one took a lowly certification with such organizations as ACE/AFFA you would have been schooled in the F.I.T theory in other words to further your training you need to increase- as Todd has stated here- one of the following
1) Frequency- up the # of times that you train
2) Intensity- Up the in training for a better threshold (aerobic/anaerobic)
3) Time- increase the time that you spend on each session of training.
Another type of idea that has come up in the latter years is cross training to improve performance such as weights or other activities that work the corresponding muscles or cardio vascular system that closely resembles the skill desired.
Here is a great link
http://whs.dist214.k12.il.us/www/academics/pe/fitnesslinks/fitweb.htm

[guest/allterrain]

Meg3, was your entry supposed to be a question? Because I already pointed out the "overload" principle! quote: "The first principle in training is OVERLOAD. If you want to intensify your training, first apply a raise in the NUMBER of workouts, then the DURATION, and (last) INTENSITY".

[megale3]

No it was an explaination of the above mentioned and a addition to the discussion on training for gains. I am sure I didn't see a question mark there did you?-Oh there's one right now- they are kind of cute wouldn't you agree????look more question marks they are just poping up all over the place now -Lets make more ????? this is so fun :D :wink:
Meg

[Todd S]

Going intense by your standards builds a metabolic debt that your body repays over subsequent hours.


Careful Lynn. You're getting more than a little sloppy with the science.

[guest/allterrain]

For the average participant who takes 3 workout a week: give them 2 "normal" endurance workouts and 1 interval/strength session, or intensify their endurance workouts, for instance by incorporating short blocks of extensive intervals.
For the ones who train 2 times a week max; they will benefit most from endurance workouts, but change the intensityand/or RPM's in one of the workouts. Most of the beneficial changes take place in these workouts, so why add high intensity workouts when they hardly get enough workouts to keep up their aerobic base...
Which bring us to your next question; aerobic base is an often misused term which, in fact, means nothing more than the beginning level of aerobic capacity. Plainly said, your aerobic capacity after 6 to 8 weeks training in a cycling program. However; if you've got someone training once or twice a week, the changes in this level will go slow. And they will still benefit more from different intensity endurance workouts than from ad hoc placed interval session.
As for your last question; if you start with interval workouts in the 91% zone when you're aerobic base hasn't fully developed, the lactic acid-levels will have a negative effect on your aerobic capacity - exactly the opposite of what you want to accomplish...
All this said, it's hardly possible to give a "safe" workout without a HR-monitor, and when the intensity gets higher, the risks only get bigger.

[Guest/allterrain]

Lynn/Raptor,

I honestly haven't got a clue where you're talking about, and I even wonder if you've got a clue yourself. Did your book fall from your lap?

[guest/allterrain]

Meg3, the (muscle training) system you refer to was already left before is was published. It was based on wrong assumptions and conclusions.

[texasred]

Allterrain,
Man, if I lived in your world (where you OWN the club and make the schedule) it would be perfect too. It would have Spinning classes at the appropriate times and with the correct periodization as well. But since I just merely work for the club as an instructor I get what I can take. Here's what that is: a club that was once a licensed Spinning facility with ONLY TWO classes offered for the week. So these folks can ONLY take a MAX of two classes. Now, 85% of the class have been taking my classes since I started there almost a year ago. I have convinced about 50% of them to use HRM. Not a single one of them rides outside, they aren't training for anything sport specific, they *might* do some other sort of cardio one other day a week and *might* do some sort of weight training a couple of times a week. They are there to either lose or maintain weight and get some exercise, plain and simple. From what I believe to understand from your other posts is I should do one endurance ride on the one day and either an IEZ or SEZ on the other? :? I disagree...

Oh, and what do you do with the members at another club where I teach, and hardly a heart rate monitor in sight and they are NOT interested in HRM.

[meg3]

Meg3, the (muscle training) system you refer to was already left before is was published. It was based on wrong assumptions and conclusions.
Well Richard,
I am not sure of the conclusions or assumptions that you are referring to. But please feel free to expand on it for me, would you? And in post, thank you again Richard for your insite.
Meg

[Todd S]

Which bring us to your next question; aerobic base is an often misused term which, in fact, means nothing more than the beginning level of aerobic capacity. Plainly said, your aerobic capacity after 6 to 8 weeks training in a cycling program.

Agreed.

[allterrain/guest]

Hi Red,

You "should" do nothing. You can "disagree" all you want. But you also see that "my world is perfect", so if I read between the lines, you would like to schedule and plan your indoor cycling lessons the same way I do... I don't believe in indoor cycling as a "weight-control plan", and as a gym owner I don't provide "weight loss programs" of any kind for the simple reason that is it the ultimate recipy for disaster. 99.9% of these people lack the dicipline to control their eating habits, and the underlaying problem(s) are almost never solved by physical excercise alone.
You can be overweight and train at our gym, but without any special programs or attention.
Indoor cycling to me is simply a program to improve one's health and stamina, and that's the way the client takes part in the program. Never ever promise them things you can't deliver - False promises are the biggest problem in the fitness industry!

[allterrain/guest]

Hi Red,

You "should" do nothing. You can "disagree" all you want. But you also see that "my world is perfect", so if I read between the lines, you would like to schedule and plan your indoor cycling lessons the same way I do... I don't believe in indoor cycling as a "weight-control plan", and as a gym owner I don't provide "weight loss programs" of any kind for the simple reason that is it the ultimate recipy for disaster. 99.9% of these people lack the dicipline to control their eating habits, and the underlaying problem(s) are almost never solved by physical excercise alone.
You can be overweight and train at our gym, but without any special programs or attention.
Indoor cycling to me is simply a program to improve one's health and stamina, and that's the way the client takes part in the program. Never ever promise them things you can't deliver - False promises are the biggest problem in the fitness industry!

[Todd S]

As for your last question; if you start with interval workouts in the 91% zone when you're aerobic base hasn't fully developed, the lactic acid-levels will have a negative effect on your aerobic capacity - exactly the opposite of what you want to accomplish...


Urban legend.

Worst case, the intensity will limit your training time and make your workout much more difficult to recover from - thus making it difficult to maintain training volume and duration.

[guest/allterrain]

Red, I missed the last part of your entry; What is there to "teach"? Why not try to find a club where they DO care about proper training?

To meg3: do you have a drinking problem or just too much time on your hands? Get serious or get out.

[Todd S]

All this said, it's hardly possible to give a "safe" workout without a HR-monitor, and when the intensity gets higher, the risks only get bigger.

Unless you have a safe and valid way to establish MHR and 'zones', you're fooling yourself in my most humble opinion.

[allterrain/guest]

Hi Todd,
Take some time, read the literature on the subject - reply again. No urban legend, plain knowledge.

[AC]

I ditto what TXred wrote here.

I guess the theory of periodizational scheduling is about all I will ever come in contact with, meaning I can read about it here, but I will never practice it because I have the same profile of riders that Red has. I have a core of about 30 people who ride the 18 bikes at BTF, and I rarely see the same people for 2 classes in a row twice a week. Since I teach Tuesday and Thursday morning, I have no clue what they do the other 5 days because many don't spin on the weekend and when they don't take class they are on an elyptical, a treadmill, or a stairmaster and then lifting weights. They come to a Spinning/reaction cycling class expecting a challenging cardio-workout as part of their weekly work-out routine which may involve losing weight, but just involves their general health. The weather is getting warmer again, so the outdoor riders will just be outdoors.

I travel a lot and take classes in lots of towns across the US and I really find my situation most typical of the instructor and rider profile. I don't see schedules announcing types of rides, but the instructor goes in and just decides what will happen that day and that time. If you (rhetoric) run a club and program differently with the types of goals that will attract members and riders that include extended moderate intensity rides, I tip my hat to you.

When I was first hired at a club soon after my certification I included some longer segments in the profile (5 or 7 minutes) working at moderate HR (75% approx) in the saddle and soon afterward was almost let go after the first class because the members wanted to be pushed harder. I got a reputation for being an "easy" instructor after 1 class! I have stayed on at this place for over 2.5 years in the same time slots by practicing teaching class to people based on the theory that that person is there for that day and class at that time. So, they get a more intense workout with higher intensity goals. Recovery segments included.

Before the old forum went down, there was a summary of a report on CNN about the participants and attraction of indoor cycling at a club in NYC. I suggest remembering why people get up at those early hours, wait outside the room early for a bike or join a club because it offers indoor cycling/Spinning. We can understand the science or base building and periodization, but most participant don't really give a shit about it.

[allterrain/guest]

Hi Todd,
once more (I've got to go to sleep, we don't live in the same timezone!); there are a lot of fairly reliable "field tests" to establish MHR, from which you can calculate training zones. Although maybe not 100% accurate, it still beats every other "guessing"-methods, like RPE, which is so "off" that I was surprised to find it in the Spinning manual! I've worked with numerous seasoned athletes, and never found one who could put an accurate number on the excertion!

[megale3]

To meg3: do you have a drinking problem or just too much time on your hands? Get serious or get out.

Richard you don't look like a pink elephant do you? but as far as the quote on HRM's
RICHARD!!!
I was so interested in your assumptions and conclusions until I read this. There is a problem here on a verity of levels.
1) Not everyone knows their true MHR without a clinical study.
2) Not everyone knows what their true RHR is (the average is 70 in the USA)
3) Karvonen is based on age predicted and assumes that you will become less fit the day- no the second you turn a year older
4) And because of you do not know what your "people" did the day before they entered your class-how can you say that you will be training in a certain HR and be aerobic vs. anaerobic- Some days 160 feels easy some days it feels totally uncomfortable.
5) And as stated so many times before you are not going to get everyone to buy a HR monitor. Plus you are going to have to give them a basic idea of a system that has holes all through it.
More over you may have to tell them what 65 to 75% of their MHR feels like and that may be disparaging coming from your lips.
So Richard easy brother.
Meg a drink you under the table

[guest/allterrain]

I do understand your situation, but that doesn't change the training principles. If you want to keep on teaching the way you do - that's your choise. But that also doesn't change training principles. I see a lot of centers in Holland providing an indoor cycling program the way you describe, which is why I quit the Spinning program and started my "own" program, nothing more than solid (bicycle) training principles. And I don't give a rat's ass about my customers wishes - if they go to the baker, they get bread, if they come to my gym, they will get healthier, without any concessions. It's a choise...

[guest/allterrain]

Last post today; ALL my clients wear a heart monitor, as for determinating MHR, see my previous remarks. I don't use Karvonen, for various reasons. The use of MHR prevents subjective feelings intervening with a training regimen. You can "feel" bad, but still "perform" good. And never rule out common sense.

[megale3]

that's your choise. . It's a choise...

Dude its C H O I C E not choise :roll: Should I be correcting him LMAO me being the worst typist in the world.
meg

[gonzosgirl01]

So, Allterrain,

In your superiority to all we mere "instructors", who do the best we can with what we have, you look down your nose at us from atop your golden kingdom.

Instead of offering tips, insight, constructive information, etc., you offer nothing but disdain & do your best to provoke everyone.

And how did you get there? Oh yeah, that's right ... by not giving a rat's ass about your customer's wishes.

It's amazing you even HAVE customers, with a stance like that.

--Mandi

[texasred]

I don't believe in indoor cycling as a "weight-control plan", and as a gym owner I don't provide "weight loss programs" of any kind for the simple reason that is it the ultimate recipy for disaster. 99.9% of these people lack the dicipline to control their eating habits, and the underlaying problem(s) are almost never solved by physical excercise alone.

I don't believe in weight loss programs either - I AM LIVING PROOF OF THAT. Also, you make it sound as if an overweight person is just doomed. Lighten up. You should take a different approach to the whole weight loss thing. Do you know how much courage it takes someone who is overweight to come in to a gym and do ANYTHING?


You can be overweight and train at our gym, but without any special programs or attention.

You sound very discriminating about an overweight person who trains at your gym? There must be nothing but perfect figures there too. Gosh Allterrain, for sure I would have never returned to your gym, I would have felt VERY intimidated.


Indoor cycling to me is simply a program to improve one's health and stamina, and that's the way the client takes part in the program. Never ever promise them things you can't deliver - False promises are the biggest problem in the fitness industry!
I have never promised any of my students things I cannot deliver. (Now, if they saw me in the infommercial - that's a different story, welcome to the world of editing.) However, I do share my own personal weight loss story with them. And I always preface it by telling them I am not telling you to go do this, it's just what I did, and what worked for ME.

[Christian spinner]

Reading this continues post that seems to have no end because people can't seem to agree to disagree and who like to exhale all their knowledge
on paper to people they don't know, therefore, why respect them anywasys, so lets just throw up on them because they aren't as smart as we may think they need to be. really makes me go hm......... The things that make us go Hm....... :roll: The point is? We all whish we lived in a perfect fitness world but we don't. It is nice to share and I can tell that the attitudes have changed. Allterain, I am impressed. You have expressed your thoughts without bashing. I appreciate that. You know a lot and that is great! But some of us are still learning OR might have been taught differently. I have been in the business for a short 8 years and just when I thing I know it all someone comes along and challenges the last idea. Crazy! The fact is that members come and go unfortunetley and we can't train them the way WE think they need to be trained. We TRY but we can't. I think we are the magority here when I say that . We don't have the luxury of periodizing a program for members. Thank God you can. What a privlige. I do agree however that most of my instructors tend to want to kill the members with intervals. So, it is my job to communicate with my instructors to monitor their training and educate the members on training. Also, to add classes that might help the new comers to gain an aerobic base. Perfect world? Wont happen. Sorry! But we keep on trying. I do see different opinions on training and I hate to say this but the JG Manual isn't the only manual for indoor cycle and there are many out there that are useful and make sense for your everyday member.

Meg3` You are a crack up. Thanks for making me laugh. I could't stop laughing. Should I add to your ??????????????? list? :P
Keep riding and looking up
Christian Spinner
PS I never said I could spell. Do you think the JG manual could help me with this problem? :wink: Just keeping it light. :)

[Todd S]

Hi Todd,
Take some time, read the literature on the subject - reply again. No urban legend, plain knowledge.

Care to point me in the right direction?

(Popular press doesn't count.)

I'm not aware of any controlled studies that demonstrate that lactic acid has any detrimental effect on mitochondrial density, capillary density, aerobic enzyme level, or any other component of aerobic capacity.

Sounds like you may be drinking some of the Maffetone Kool Aid.

[texasred]

Red, I missed the last part of your entry; What is there to "teach"? Why not try to find a club where they DO care about proper training?
I never asked what is there to teach. I asked, "From what I believe to understand from your other posts is I should do one endurance ride on the one day and either an IEZ or SEZ on the other?" and "Oh, and what do you do with the members at another club where I teach, and hardly a heart rate monitor in sight and they are NOT interested in HRM." For the second question that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the club, but with it's members. So, should I find a club that has members who DO care about proper training? GET REAL.

To meg3: do you have a drinking problem or just too much time on your hands? Get serious or get out.
Allterain, what is your problem? :evil: Quit bashing people.

[CancunCarol]

Allterrain/Guest/I'm outa here

What your saying is generally correct or as I am sure you would come back to argue 100% correct however... You said YOU decided to open your own facility training People the way You believe they should Train, Good For YOU.
The problem here is that you are coming down on every or anyone that believes differently than YOU. Instead of People Admiring you for doing something you believe in you have managed to alienate or offend most of the forumites... I think that has something to do with your delivery.
I am sure you could really give a rats ass about that though :wink:

[Todd S]

I've worked with numerous seasoned athletes, and never found one who could put an accurate number on the excertion!

What's more important... The level of exertion or the number?

Most seasoned athletes have a remarkable sense of sustainable pace/power output over various times/distances without caring at all what their heartrate is.

[megale3]

That is the whole thing they are going to produce what ever it takes to get the job done the best way they can. To get consistency with in our work outs and use HRM's adequately we need a total focus and a regimented routine that consists of work outs, dietary to the gram ,sleep habits, no disgruntled “all-terrain” type people in the cars next to us on the way home from a day of relaxing work. (Yah right)
So I would say the level of exertion Todd -it rules the roost- Pain says how much you can take how much you can last pain is a bad Moth$%#@*(&
Meg

[Legspeed]

Ahem...
Mi mi mi mi miiiiii
Lalalalalalalalaaaaaa

<-- cue theme song to Green Acres

Oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink

[guest/allterrain]

Meg3: thanks for your correction on my spelling - as soon as you can write me something in Dutch, (which is my "native" language..) we'll talk again.
Mandi: I have been offering constructive information, and I'm not looking down on anyone. Read.
Texasred: I've got a lot of overweight people in my gym, including my wife, who weighs over 105 kilograms (she was a European champion powerlifting.), but we don't special programs for them. It simply is not an issue here, but if they want to lose weight, go ahead!
You make a clear difference between your profession (advertising) in which it's obviously OK to sell bull, as for your hobby (instructor) you seek the "total truth". Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd? To me my work and my hobby are the same thing, with the same values.
Todd: I surely would like to keep on exchanging info, just not on this forum anymore. The info and the respose cleary show that there's just no need for this kind of information. You can reach me at sportschooltexel@texel.com
Texasred: it's up to you if you want to "teach" a group of people who are obviously not interested in serious training. If you don't mind to lead these people through the moves - it's got nothing to do with me, I just tried to answer your questions.
Cancuncarol: I don't "seek" anything. A lot of forum-visitors just seem to be very touchy when something comes up that strikes a nerve. So be it.
Todd: I'm a fairly experienced ultra-runner, who participated in the 2002 "Marathon des Sables" and came in 49th out of 150 contestants in the 2003 "Desert Cup", a 180 kilometer non-stop footrace through Mali. This would probably qualify me as a "seasoned athlete" and unless it is an LSD in the 65 - 75% zone, I have never been able to pinpoint my heartrate in any other zone. At least not close enough to plan my workouts on. So I guess it would be almost impossible for the average indoor cycling participant...
Meg3: unless your last remark was meant as a joke, you're so way off, that it's hardly worth the reply..
Legspeed: you're have been a real asset to this whole forum-entry. If you take your hobby (I don't think you teach indoor cycling as a professional) as serious as you have this forum, I would consider taking up stand-up comedy as your next challenge.

As for all the other people who have responded to my or other messages in this item; the ones who mailed me with serious questions and remarks -thanks, it's good to know you're out there!
As for the others: it has once again become very clear (not only to me..) that the majority of the indoor cycling instructors are unwilling or unable
to provide a sound training program for their customers, and let themself lead by the customers or the gym managers wishes. I'm aware that I'm lucky to do things different and I do understand the frustration of the instructors who are not this lucky.
I would like to continue this discussion for a bit more, but it has already taken me more time than I could afford.

Allterrain

www.sportschooltexel. com e-mail: sportschooltexel@texel.com

[meg3]

Meg3: thanks for your correction on my spelling - as soon as you can write me something in Dutch, (which is my "native" language..) we'll talk again.
Meg3: unless your last remark was meant as a joke, you're so way off, that it's hardly worth the reply..


Op Richard van van aan jou!

I was considering not dignifying your comments with a reply but I am having fun at your exspense so here goes-
8)
Just because your handy-caped Richard doesn't mean that you can't use your brain for more than just to look cute and hanging your ears off of. Quite frankly I have been reluctant in saying that you live and work in what sounds to me like a very antiseptic environment and your information may be good for lab rats (give a rats...?) and not for we/us in the really real world. So as you sit there in your sudo universe drinking Prier water and reading Mary Popins and Chitty Chitty Bang Bang- (buy the way do you actually get out of that oxygen bubble to go for a bike ride once in a while?) - if you have a "take" on a situation in what happens in a real world environment than please don't say it- I/we can handle your silence. What does your HRM say right now 180bpm?
Meg

[texasred]

Mandi: I have been offering constructive information, and I'm not looking down on anyone. Read.
Why don't YOU re-read! I did and it is quite clear that you ARE looking down on all of us who don't have the perfect set-up. And then maybe, this whole thing is just a cultural difference to begin with?


Texasred: You make a clear difference between your profession (advertising) in which it's obviously OK to sell bull, as for your hobby (instructor) you seek the "total truth". Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd? To me my work and my hobby are the same thing, with the same values.
Texasred: it's up to you if you want to "teach" a group of people who are obviously not interested in serious training. If you don't mind to lead these people through the moves - it's got nothing to do with me, I just tried to answer your questions.
First, :evil: I don't know where you get off thinking that I take being an instructor as a hobby. Look dude, I take it VERY seriously! And quite frankly I don't see the need to explain why I am an instructor part-time vs. full-time here on this forum. I sure don't appreciate you dissing my values - you don't even know me. I NEVER once said I wanted to sell any of my students "bull". I do the research for my profiles, not only am I JGSI, but also Sally Edwards Blue Jersey (getting my Green Jersey in May). I don't just copy something off this forum or out of a book and just go do it. I take the time to understand it and why it's being done that way. I quote "As I said before, even with the best preparation it may come across as an unprepared class. I would never recommend an instructor going in blindly with a profile they pulled off the forum with no music planned out, etc. But I do think with experience and time we get faster and better at putting profiles and music together. It's a creative mix, just like in the advertising business. but then there are times in that business as well when you could have all the time in the world to come up with something fresh and creative and you ain't got a thing! Then your boss comes in and asks for something in 10 minutes and it's the best work you've ever done." So Allterrain why don't YOU go back and read. Get off your high horse! Not once have you answered a SINGLE ONE of my questions with anything more than a mere "I'm better than you" attitude. Give me ONE answer to ONE of my questions about what I should do given the schedule situation. Go back, find the question and answer it. The rest of us don't have the luxury to blow off our clients and not give a sh*!t about what they think. That attitude right there just tells me that you are in this only for you anyway. Where I work, we don't discrimanate at our gym if you're overweight, serious or not serious about training. They are all welcome. And I for one treat them all with the same respect. Remember - they are the real ones who dictate the schedule, it's their ride - not mine.

[quote="guest/allterrain"]For the average participant who takes 3 workout a week: give them 2 "normal" endurance workouts and 1 interval/strength session, or intensify their endurance workouts, for instance by incorporating short blocks of extensive intervals.[quote]

What do we do for those who use the treadmill on the 2 off days and expect a higher intensity workout when they come to a cycle class? Please understand that the "average participant" does not cycle exclusivly! In your perfect world this works for you and your participants, but as you are hopefully catching on too, that's not necessarily what meets the needs of our participants.

[jala3]

Sorry, I was not signed in...it's jala3.

[PartyDrummer]

What Allterrain wants to make clear is the importance of Spinning (R).

We all know that Spinning is a training programme, not just a workout.

He talks about training three times a week, 2 endurance and 1 interval/strength. That would be very good to build a good and healthy base.

The most of you say that the average participant wants a high intensity workout. What's the purpose of that?! Why would you train at high intensities when you ''train" only one or two times a week? That's very bad for your health and body. It's your task to make that clear to the people and not only doin' what your participants want. Be your own champion and the rest will follow.

[jala3]

Most of the participants who take my cycle classes come to the gym 5x a week...they are in a cycle class 2-3x a week. On the days they don't cycle they either use the cardio equipment, take other class formats and/or lift weights. Again, cycle is not all that they do!

[Todd S]

The most of you say that the average participant wants a high intensity workout. What's the purpose of that?! Why would you train at high intensities when you ''train" only one or two times a week? That's very bad for your health and body.

Assuming they have no trouble finishing a full Spinning class and they're fully recovered going into their class, why is it bad for their health and body?

By definition, weight training is a much more high intensity, anaerobic type of training. Why doesn't anyone claim that weight training once or twice a week is bad for anyone's health and body?

[Todd S]

Want more to ponder...

Journals are full of studies such as this...
Villani, A. J., Fernhall, B., & Miller, W. C. (1999). Effects of aerobic and anaerobic training to exhaustion on VO2max and exercise performance. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, 31(5), Supplement abstract 1093.

Summary:
This study compared the effects of exhaustive aerobic continuous training (AT) and exhaustive anaerobic interval training (ANT) on VO2max and Wingate Power Test scores. Ss (N = 15) exercised three times per week for four weeks, training sessions being of equal duration.

The ANT group increased time to fatigue at VO2max, while AT showed no significant change. ANT also improved significantly more than AT in peak power, 30-s power output, and total work output in the Wingate Test.

Implication:
Exhaustive anaerobic interval training produces quicker physiological adaptations than does continuous aerobic training.

[texasred]

What Allterrain wants to make clear is the importance of Spinning (R).


Really? This statement straight from the horse's mouth "quote: To conclude this discussion (from my end at least..) it is probably better for me to leave the program and stick to the basic training principles, than stay in the program as a JGSI and end up like a number of contributors on this forums item." make me go hmm.....

[guest/allterrain]

Hi Todd,

I asked you to reply via my own E-mail, which seems to be too much trouble. Instead you come up with a piece of information, which is meant for a totally different group of riders than the ones you train, almost semi-professional road cyclists who train up to 6 days a week, with hundreds of miles on the road every month, and even than this kind of training should be kept for limited time within a good periodisation schedule. If you would have read the total article (which is a little bit longer than just the piece you quoted), this might have been clear. You took some bits & peaces from an interesting sounding article and cooked it up to fit your theory. Dumb. A piece of thought from Chris Carmichael: : "I (Chris Carmichael) noted that the major breakthrough for Lance Armstrong occured when he stopped focusing his training on his anaerobic system (too many days of sprints/intervals and long rides at close to 100% V02max) and began to train his aerobic system. This allowed him to increase his AT, be "fresher" near the end of the race with less lactate on board, and as a result capitalize on his anaerobic capacity near the end of the race day. An added benefit was less recovery time from lactate build up and a stronger next day on the bike. Training too hard, too many days in a row can be as bad as under training."
Man, I really don't know why I bother to reply on a forum, where people have more intersting thing to say on "hard nipples" than on basis training principles!

[Bill]

Lance is on his bike six to eight hours a day. If his only time to workout was 45 minutes, 2-3 days a week, like most of us working stiffs, I doubt that he would be riding in the so called "Endurance Zone" very much. Comparing Lance to the average gym rat is like comparing a John Deere tractor to an F-14 Tomcat.

[guest/allterrain]

Bill/Todd - the basics still stay the same, wheter you're Lance Armstrong or not.
From another source (Francois gazarro - text available): "VO2 max is a poor to moderte predictor of real-life performance and it's importance in sports performance is often overemphasized". But anyone can understand that your "general fitness" level will not increase by solely peforming high intensity workouts...

[guest/allterrain]

The last entry by Bill is a good example of "upside down thinking" - because the average indoor cyclist has no time/opportunity to train hours a day, you've got to feed him high intensity lessons? What is there to gain from high intensity lessons when they haven't even got time enough to build an extensive aerobic condition?
So Bill's/Todd idea comes down to: if you have no time to train, solve this by training at the highest intensity possible? See Todd's remark: "Implication: exhaustive anaerobic interval training produces quicker physiological adaptations than does continuous aerobic training". So Lance, my man, get off that bike, hire a fishing boat en start one week before the Tour the France on some super high-intensity training and presto!

[Bill]

Dear Guest/Allterrain,

Saying that V02 max is not a good indicator of performance shows how mislead you are my friend. And since you like refering to Lance "it's all about me" Armstrong, let's find out what his V02 max is and compare it to the average gym rat.

You can site studies all day long that will argue either side, but my own argument comes from my personal experiences and observations. I run 5K races under 14:30 and brought my body fat from 30 to 6 percent in the last four years.

I spent five years "taking it easy" on recumbent bikes and easy walking on treadmills prior to starting high intensity training four years ago. I was deceived by a so called "personal trainer" who thought much like you.

I didn't see much improvement back then and I'm now watching the same fat people that started at the gym when I did, continue to take it easy on the recumbents, while reading the newspaper, while I'm either running some hard intervals on the treadmill, or cranking out 2000 meters on the Concept 2 erg as hard as I can go. These fatties are still taking their high blood pressure and high cholesterol meds while I've quit giving my money to drug companies.

I know that high intensity is not for everyone, but telling someone that has a high work ethic to "take it easy" is absurd.

[megale3]

I think that what Todd/Bill has stated above is simply that training at an intensity that exceeds V02 max may be a more important component than the volume of training to stimulate an increase in muscle oxidative potential. Every rider has a finite ability to emprove oxygen consumption (blame your parents). But I believe that endurance can be inproved , as well as lactate threshold and quality of riding technique. But for the most part the most inprovement can be noted on the whip lash smile of the cyclist.
Meg

[guest/allterrain]

Hi Bill,

If you've read my previous entries, you can see that to me indoor cycling is not about weight loss. So although I compliment you with your achievements, it has not much to do with the whole discussion. By the way, I lost 35 kilograms in two years, after I had to give up bodybuilding when I crashed in motocross and broke my collarbone (I still had the same body fat percentage in the end though, somewhere around 12%..) and went from 105 kilograms to 70 kilograms, while the only thing I did was increase my kilometers a week. I don't run fast, but man, can I run long! (came in 49th out of 150 in the last Desert Cup 2003).
But it still doesn't change the basics..

[Nipsi98]

These fatties are still taking their high blood pressure and high cholesterol meds while I've quit giving my money to drug companies.

If this is the case, it just may be their diets, and a good thing they aren't working too hard.


I've had just the opposite happen as what Bill just described. Prior to becoming an aerobics instructor, I was a participant who would always do the higher intensity options during class. Would run 5 miles as fast as I could, thought that if I didn't get a good sweat up then I didn't get a good workout. Held on to that last 10 pounds no matter how hard I exercised. Went to a personal trainer and was told that I should take it down a notch. Didn't take it down a notch until I became certified and had to in order to be able to cue. The inches poured off. My eating didnt change, same number of classes. The only variable was the intensity of my workouts.

Working in the aerobic zone doesn't mean people are "taking it easy". Endurance work is working as hard as you can while keeping your heart rate in the specified range. Then when you think you are working as hard as you can in that range, challenging yourself to work harder and still maintain your heart rate goal.

Had an endurance ride the other night, gave heart rate specs (majority of our riders use HRM), RPE, maintained cadence for the entire ride, stayed in the saddle and cued the riders to add small amounts of resistance throughout the ride. When the ride was over one of the riders left the room and sat on the bench outside the aerobics and spinning rooms. I thought he was waiting to go into the aerobics class., so I asked. His response was "no. (he) needed to gather enough energy to get to his car. That was one of the toughest rides." Endurance does not mean easy!

[Nipsi98]

These fatties are still taking their high blood pressure and high cholesterol meds while I've quit giving my money to drug companies.

If this is the case, it just may be their diets, and a good thing they aren't working too hard.


I've had just the opposite happen as what Bill just described. Prior to becoming an aerobics instructor, I was a participant who would always do the higher intensity options during class. Would run 5 miles as fast as I could, thought that if I didn't get a good sweat up then I didn't get a good workout. Held on to that last 10 pounds no matter how hard I exercised. Went to a personal trainer and was told that I should take it down a notch. Didn't take it down a notch until I became certified and had to in order to be able to cue. The inches poured off. My eating didnt change, same number of classes. The only variable was the intensity of my workouts.

Working in the aerobic zone doesn't mean people are "taking it easy". Endurance work is working as hard as you can while keeping your heart rate in the specified range. Then when you think you are working as hard as you can in that range, challenging yourself to work harder and still maintain your heart rate goal.

Had an endurance ride the other night, gave heart rate specs (majority of our riders use HRM), RPE, maintained cadence for the entire ride, stayed in the saddle and cued the riders to add small amounts of resistance throughout the ride. When the ride was over one of the riders left the room and sat on the bench outside the aerobics and spinning rooms. I thought he was waiting to go into the aerobics class., so I asked. His response was "no. (he) needed to gather enough energy to get to his car. That was one of the toughest rides." Endurance does not mean easy!

[Todd S]

From another source (Francois gazarro - text available): "VO2 max is a poor to moderte predictor of real-life performance and it's importance in sports performance is often overemphasized".

However, running velocity at VO2max (for a runner) or power output at VO2max (for a cyclist) are excellent predictors of sports performance.

[Todd S]

...you come up with a piece of information, which is meant for a totally different group of riders than the ones you train, almost semi-professional road cyclists who train up to 6 days a week, with hundreds of miles on the road every month...

Bill/Todd - the basics still stay the same, wheter you're Lance Armstrong or not.

[Todd S]

The only thing 'magical' about moderate intensity is that it allows the athlete to increase duration and volume. If you're not providing any adaptive stress by increasing frequency or duration, a steady diet of moderate intensity will soon be a waste of their time.

The old coaches saying... "Train slow to race fast."
Translation... Train slow to train long, train long to race fast.

A piece of thought from Chris Carmichael: : "I (Chris Carmichael) noted that the major breakthrough for Lance Armstrong occured when he stopped focusing his training on his anaerobic system (too many days of sprints/intervals and long rides at close to 100% V02max) and began to train his aerobic system. This allowed him to increase his AT, be "fresher" near the end of the race with less lactate on board, and as a result capitalize on his anaerobic capacity near the end of the race day. An added benefit was less recovery time from lactate build up and a stronger next day on the bike. Training too hard, too many days in a row can be as bad as under training."

Wasn't Carmichael's point that the lowered intensity allowed him to increase his training volume while still allowing adequate recovery?

I'll argue that most of what you assign as being the detriments of 'High Intensity' are really only symptoms of 'Inadequate Recovery'. "This allowed him to increase his AT, be "fresher" near the end of the race with less lactate on board, and as a result capitalize on his anaerobic capacity near the end of the race day." Classic signs of 'overreaching' or inadequate recovery for the volumes he was putting in to prepare for the Tour wouldn't you say?

[Todd S]

Man, I really don't know why I bother to reply on a forum, where people have more intersting thing to say on "hard nipples" than on basis training principles!

You pretty much insulted them all. Can't run and hide now.

[Bill]

Endurance work is working as hard as you can while keeping your heart rate in the specified range.

That may be a legitimate definition of endurance, but that's not how it's explained by the Johnny G groupies.

They say you must stay between 65-75% of mhr, not deviating more than 2 bpm's +/-, pedaling at 80-110 rpm's, and staying in the saddle.

If I spent my three sessions per week @ 45 minutes per session doing that type of training, I do sincerely believe that my level of fitness would decline.

When I want to rest, I'll stay at home. I go to the gym to do work that will cause me to maintain, or improve fitness.

If endurance to you is working as hard as you can without crashing before reaching the intended length of time, that sounds like MDA's definition of Race Day. Or basically like doing a time trial effort.

Now that, and intervals is my kind of training.

Does anybody really think that L. Armstrong would train at 75% of mhr if he only had time to train 3X per week @ 45 minutes per time?

[Nipsi98]

Endurance work is working as hard as you can while keeping your heart rate in the specified range.


If endurance to you is working as hard as you can without crashing before reaching the intended length of time, that sounds like MDA's definition of Race Day. Or basically like doing a time trial effort.

This is not what I said... see above post and quote.

We stayed seated, maintained cadence, HR, and added resistance in small increments. If HR varied, focus was on bringing HR back to goal without changing cadence.

Nobody here is saying if all you have is 3 days a week to work out they should all be done in the EEZ. But endurance should have a place in every program.

[allterrain/guest]

Hi Todd,
the benefit of improving one's VO2 max lies in the very "high end" of an athlete's performance. In reaching high speed for a very short time, and short & steep climbs.
To reach these goals, which are of absolutely no importance to the average recreational indoor cyclist, you need to implement intensive endurance workouts and extensive and intensive interval workouts. These workouts will deplete your glycogen reserves and call for long recovery periods (48 hrs for intensive endurance, intensive interval 72 hrs, extensive interval 48 hrs) and will do more bad then good if they're not carefully planned into a periodiodisation scheme. And they are ONLY to be implemented in a training regimen AFTER an extremely good aerobic base has been build.

So that still remains the core issue in this this discussion; if I should take your advise, the smartest thing to do would be to perform extensive endurance and intensive and extensive interval workouts, with rest inbetween. And this would, in your opinion, lead to excellent performance.

So every book on this subject is wrong and every athlete who spends hours on the road, running, biking or training for any other kind of endurance dicipline, could save himself tons of time by going to the gym and take 2 (there's hardly enough recovery time to do 3 workouts..) workouts in the "zones" mentioned above and perform like a champion, not "wasting" any time on 65 - 75% endurance workouts.

Well, the one thing you've clearly described is the way most of the other instructors/centers I've visited schedule and perform their indoor cycling classes - without any attention to reaching/maintaining an aerobic base.

Once more - ALL of the centers I've visited put the above mentioned schedule up YEAR ROUND, and most of the people who responded to my entries, either on the forum or at my E-mail, state that they do it the same way as descibed above.

So it would be nice to hear some opinions of indoor cycling/spinning/whatever Master Instructors! Or maybe it's time for Todd to re-write the manuals on indoor cycling/spinning/whatever and save us all loads of time & effort.

Bill, I really think it's good that you achieved your goals doing it the way you describe, but you're probably an exception to the rule. When you worked out, 3 times a week 45 minutes on endurance, did you use a HR monitor? Check your recovery time? Rest pulse? And how much did you expect to improve on 3 x 45 minutes a week? In a normal training week, I make an average of 18 - 25 hrs, not including my indoor cycling lessons.
So you can't expect quick results on a 3x45 minute routine. But you will improve, without training yourself into a frenzy by performing only high intensity workouts. When you would look at Lance's training schedule, you will probably find the same emphasis on endurance as in any other training schedule. And, by the way, I didn't really go for your "it's all about me" Armstrong" remark. If someone in my gym would make such a caustic remark about someone who's in my opinion one of the finest sportsmen of this time, I would kick his ass right out of the door.
You sound to me like a typical "endorphine junk", which I've met a lot, and they tend to "burn out" pretty quick.

[JFK]

In following the threads between Todd/Bill and All-Terrain, one thing that strikes me (as one not involved in the discussion) is that you all may <gasp> be agreeing with each other (at least to an extent). In any case, I think this is one of those discussions where you are each using terms (high intensity, for example) that have not been adequately-enough defined to mean anything.

So, how 'bout it? What does high intensity mean? I would recommend expressing it as both a %age of VO2max and time-delimited (ex. 10sec max, 30 sec, 5 min, 20 min) for those instances where no other quantifiable information is available. I think this is (or can be) an interesting discussion. And we also need to define whom we are training and what the benefits will be (ha! and you all thought this would be an easy quiz..) As you have all noticed, there are an awful lot of variables mixed up in here, never mind things like individual differences....

Just food for thought (hey, someone in there made the mistake of calling for an MI...) ;-)

[texasred]

Once more - ALL of the centers I've visited put the above mentioned schedule up YEAR ROUND, and most of the people who responded to my entries, either on the forum or at my E-mail, state that they do it the same way as descibed above.

So it would be nice to hear some opinions of indoor cycling/spinning/whatever Master Instructors! Or maybe it's time for Todd to re-write the manuals on indoor cycling/spinning/whatever and save us all loads of time & effort.

OMG Richard you are so full of yourself. When I asked you way back when at the begining of this thread given the schedule given to me at the facility where I work (only 2 classes are offered a week) what would you do? You still have yet to respond other than I should go work somewhere else - that's a great educated response.


Bill, I really think it's good that you achieved your goals doing it the way you describe, but you're probably an exception to the rule.
He's not the only one. Similar experience here too. Look Richard, obviously you have never had to battle with your weight and by the looks of it have the time to devote to your training. The average gym attendee does not, and they're not at the gym to "train" per se, those folks are out on their bikes, out on the trails, etc. training. The average gym goer purchases their membership and come after work, or maybe before, a few times a week, but real life is what they have to deal with. come down out of the clouds for a minute and talk about what you do with the "average" person who goes to the gym.


And, by the way, I didn't really go for your "it's all about me" Armstrong" remark. If someone in my gym would make such a caustic remark about someone who's in my opinion one of the finest sportsmen of this time, I would kick his ass right out of the door. You sound to me like a typical "endorphine junk", which I've met a lot, and they tend to "burn out" pretty quick.
Geesh! And you wonder why people on this thread think you're bashing people, mean spirited, egotistical, or anything else I may have forgotten? Richard - You need to get a grip on something you like...

[Todd S]

the benefit of improving one's VO2 max lies in the very "high end" of an athlete's performance. In reaching high speed for a very short time, and short & steep climbs.


Interesting discussion.

By definition, VO2max is THE measure of aerobic capacity. Not some vague term such as 'aerobic base'. Aerobic base is fitness goal and event specific. An adequate aerobic base for an ultra marathoner is not the same as an adequate aerobic base for someone who never wants to run more than 5 kilometers.

VO2max is not just important for performance at or near vVO2max or pVO2max. Who will have the best chance of winning the next 'Desert Cup' or some other ultra event... Someone who can run 9 minute miles while consuming 45 ml/kg/min of O2 and whose VO2max is 55 ml/kg/min, OR someone who can run 9 minute miles while consuming that same 45 ml/kg/min of O2 but whose VO2max is 65 ml/kg/min? The first runner is performing at 81% of his VO2max while running his 9 minute miles, the second is only using 69% of his aerobic capacity to run his 9 minute miles. My money is on the second guy.

You're program is totally reasonable for someone who trains 20 or more hours per week and whose goal event is many hours long. Your aerobic base has to give you the muscular endurance and stamina to last for many hours. 'Aerobic base' for the 3 time per week, 45 minuter per session spinning participant is different. This person's 'event' lasts less than an hour. Their 'base' is adequate if they can pedal hard for an hour on a regular basis without getting injured or totally exhausted. Their 'base' is adequate for them but would leave you crawling three hours into your 'Desert Cup'. Forcing them to train at the relative intensities you train at for 20 or more hours per week will leave them undertrained. Forcing you to repeatedly train at intensities that are typical for a decent 5 or 10 K runner would leave you exhausted and unable to maintain the training volume required to complete your next 'Desert Cup'.

That's where the Spinning "program" got it wrong in my most humble opinion. They force fit sound principles that require the manipulation of frequency, duration, and intensity to a program that involves fixed training duration and relatively fixed training frequency for the typical participant. It all sounds good and makes for something to talk about if you need a continuing ed. program, but the fact is in reality it's all pretty basic if you're limited to 2-hour training weeks. Just ride hard (but not so hard you can't finish the class rather comfortably) and get enough rest between training sessions to feel fresh and wanting to ride when you walk into the gym. Things don't have to be much more complex than that until you add more hours to your training week or are looking to maximize athletic performance.

[Todd S]

Oh yeah. I almost forgot.

My nipples usually aren't too perky and everyone who e-mails me thinks I'm smart, too.

[gonzosgirl01]

Todd, for the record, you are pretty smart.

I think the 98.5% of us instructors who aren't uber-instructors/trainers/elitists/whatever have it down pat. America just keeps getting bigger & bigger (& I ain't talkin bout their nipples, either), we give them a chance to safely exercise at their own intensity, for a specified amount of time, to *gasp* lose weight & maintain a healthy lifestyle, which is what most of them want (the rest of them (me included) have a life outside of the spin room. Isn't that the point?

You can lead a casual indoor cyclist to a HRM, but you can't make him follow it. I can strap one on everybody in my room, but I can't MAKE them adhere to any of MY standards for any given profile - it's on them to apply the principles I've learned borrowing from every source I can find: books, net, instructors, etc. In the end, they'll do what they can.

--Mandi

[allterrain/guest]

Todd: to start with your remark "'Aerobic base' for the 3 time per week, 45 minuts per session spinning participant is different. This person's 'event' lasts less than an hour. Their 'base' is adequate if they can pedal hard for an hour on a regular basis without getting injured or totally exhausted. This makes perfect sense; however - how do they obtain a "base" from which they can "pedal hard for an hour"? And how will they maintain this base if you're only provide rides/lessons that make them train far above this level? Do you implement endurance/strength classes in your schedule or just interval workouts?

But both your and JFK's remarks made me realise that the difference between the way we approach the subject of indoor cycling lies in the goals we have set for our clients. You place a lot of emphasis on the improvement of VO2 max, while my goal is to improve the general cardiovasculair condition of my clients, without submitting them to two or three "red zone" workouts a week. As I stated above ("for the average participant who takes 3 workout a week: give them 2 "normal" endurance workouts and 1 interval/strength session, or intensify their endurance workouts, for instance by incorporating short blocks of extensive intervals"). I'm not opposed to the use of intervals, just opposed to the SOLE use...

Some of my regulars have been tested since the beginning of the program and found their VO2 max increased, everyone's resting heart rate has gone down signifantly and recovery time after maximum effort has shortened.
So I must be doing something right..

As for your last remark: "That's where the Spinning "program" got it wrong in my most humble opinion. They force fit sound principles that require the manipulation of frequency, duration, and intensity to a program that involves fixed training duration and relatively fixed training frequency for the typical participant. It all sounds good and makes for something to talk about if you need a continuing ed. program, but the fact is in reality it's all pretty basic if you're limited to 2-hour training weeks. Things don't have to be much more complex than that until you add more hours to your training week or are looking to maximize athletic performance." - That's where JFK's remarks come in - I am JGSI certified, but quit the program after finishing the "periodisation" course - you can vary the program a bit, but never enough to periodise for such a divers group under these terms. I would like to have Jennifer's opinion on this!

To end with Todd/Bill's VO2 story - in Todd's opinion the one with the highest VO2 max would be 'the one he put his money on". But there are a lot of other factors that determine wheter someone wins or comes in second....

[Meg3]

But there are a lot of other factors that determine wheter someone wins or comes in second....

Pollock, 1973 states
1) initial level of fitness
2) age
3) frequency of training
4) intensity of training
5) duration of exercise and total training programs
6) genetics

And the big one is...
if Todd had trained them then my money is on them :mrgreen:
But then again Todd doesn't train people to race indoor cycles.... Oh well I guess we'll never see this race
Meg

[guest/allterrain]

Other factors include mental attitude (ability to tolerate pain), economy (how efficiently one moves), and lactate threshold (fastest pace you can maintain without accumulating large amounts of lactic acid in your blood)

[meg3]

LADY LUCK

[allterrain/guest]

???

[megale3]

???
Luck meaning like when Lance went cyclo-cross racing during the Tour last year after the cyclist in front of him went down. Had he been closer to the accident then the out come could have been two in the hospital and third place at that point been on the podium -Yanni would have been champion in yellow and the 6th tour victory could have been on hold for the next "genetically" blessed rider to come along and be Lucky enough to hold on through all to make it to the end. Would we be discussing cadences being better to spin up or spin down? its just the luck of it all. I wish I had been born lucky enough to have a stroke volume the size of a horse or maybe not may be I am the lucky one.
Meg

[Todd S]

I'm not opposed to the use of intervals, just opposed to the SOLE use.

I think we're in total agreement there.

Periodization. If you're fortunate enough to have 4 or more classes per week at one location with a core group of people who attend them all regularly, then I think you can do kind of a pseudo-periodization thing. Those who are interested, pick up a paperback copy of Daniels' Running Formula by Jack Daniels. Obviously, it's a running book but Daniels has a real nice, simple approach in my opinion to scheduling workouts. It's the method I've kind of modified and adopted in scheduling my classes at the location where I teach four times per week.

Daniels' method is to assign your training into six week phases. His phases include foundation/injury prevention phase (i.e. base building), early quality phase, transition quality phase, and what he calls final quality phase. Each week he choses two to three days for 'quality' training sessions - a primary emphasis day, a secondary emphasis day, and sometimes a maintenance day. What 'phase' of training you're in determines what you do on your quality training days, the other days you build volume with easier, endurance type runs that don't add to your recovery stress. With a little thought and translation of terms, it's an easy approach to adapt to a Spinning class schedule.

Example... you could include a base building phase (for me, I always back off on class intensity between Thanksgiving and the new year and for a few weeks during the summer when attendance is more sporadic and folks are busy with other things), a climbing strength phase, a VO2 maximizing/lactate tolerance phase, and maybe something like a sharpening phase (good place to toss in a race day class or two). You're kind of limited with what you can do in a Spinning environment and most folks probably won't even know you're changing things from week to week or that there's even any method to your madness. Probably doesn't even matter that you define your phases, I think it's just important that you periodically mix things up a bit.

With your training weeks themselves, let's say you teach on Monday, Wednesday, Saturday, and Sunday. Saturday, you're lucky enough to have an extra long 75 to 90 minute time slot. Using Daniels' method, your long Saturday class is your 'primary' emphasis day and let's say Wednesdays are your 'secondary' emphasis day. Sunday, as it always immediately follows your hard Saturday 'primary' day, is your easy day for endurance or light aerobic intervals that are easy to tolerate when folks are not yet fully recovered from Saturday. Mondays, not a 'quality' day, just something moderately intense.

Now let's say you're in your 'climbing strength' phase. Saturday (primary emphasis day) would be a strength workout or a strength/interval type workout. Wednesdays (secondary emphasis day), maybe intervals. Sunday, as always is 'easy' day with some lighter endurance or easy aerobic intervals that are easy on the legs; and Mondays maybe a moderate intensity strength workout or some moderately hard intervals.

VO2max/Lactate tolerance phase - Saturdays (primary emphasis day) is definitely some hard intervals; Wednesdays, maybe intervals that are a little less structured; Mondays, some moderately intense strength work, and Sundays as always is easy, volume building day.

I don't know... That's just an example. I think the important thing is that you give it some thought and realize some program out of a book probably doesn't make sense for a 3 hour per week training schedule. Most people won't know what the h**l you're doing anyway. But it's just a way to mix things up in a way that sort of makes sense and keeps things from getting stale. If you just teach one or two classes per week somewhere, none of all that makes sense and probably all you can do is mix things up a bit and hope people enjoy your classes.

My two cents... (Maybe more like a nickel or dimes worth)

[megale3]

I'm not opposed to the use of intervals, just opposed to the SOLE use.

I think we're in total agreement there.

Most people won't know what the h**l you're doing anyway. But it's just a way to mix things up in a way that sort of makes sense and keeps things from getting stale. If you just teach one or two classes per week somewhere, none of all that makes sense and probably all you can do is mix things up a bit and hope people enjoy your classes.


And they'll come back to your class when the weather turns bad again because everything you did made them feel like getting out on the bike or into that swimsuit was all made possible in part because they came to your class. Really, looking at the resourcefulness and insight that you coaches’ show is that there is a future to the training. I have a Ace news letter dated back to 1998 Volume 3 number 6 of Dec Jan and was calling indoor cycling a FAD and today ID Cycling has many philosophies as there are auto manufacturers. You too have added - All terrain- I believe I heard that you have developed your own program? Most all of them have been behind a periodization schedule and all face this same issue with resounding content but not so much clarity. But again like profiles of terrain there are as many profiles on periodization and with that kind of latitude why do people get bored and stop coming to classes? Our real competitors is not the gym down the street it’s the recumbent bicycles in front of the TV sets just outside the studio doors.
Meg

[allterrain/guest]

Even before I decided to leave the Spinning-program for what it was, I implemented a 4-week schedule, with increasing intensity build-up and a raceday at the end - either a time trail, a simulated ATB-contest of something like a "mont Ventoux"-climb, whatever gets them in the 92% "zone". I am very fortunate to have pretty constant groups, who come in 2 - 3 times a week, so my thought was that this would give them the most progression. In this 4 weeks period I alternate endurance/strength/interval workouts, with an extra endurance class on saturday and 2-hour rides every other week. When I take the interval classes as an example, it build this up in this 4-week period from (for instance) 6 minute intervals with 2-3 minutes rest at 87% max to 90 second to 2 minutes intervals with 2.5 times the interval time as rest at the end of this period, just before the raceday. I do the same thing for endurance (I keep the strenght workouts at a 85% max, climbs in the higher HR-zones are intergrated in the interval workouts). At the moment, I'm working with my former running/ATB couch on a system which is quite similar to Todd's schedule as stated above. As I already stated, my clients tend to come in very regularly and almost all year round, with a little drop in the 6-weeks summer holidays, in which we take the workouts down a little in intensity, same as Todd described. And please, don't jump all over me in the next entries that "it's easy for me to say and do", cause I know that I'm lucky to run things the way I do. But it all came at a cost; I won't get rich from running my gym like this, but that has never been our goal - all we (my wife and I) ever wanted was to give our customers their money's worth, and we've been doing that since 1985... With a lot of customers today that were present at the opening...

[bluenoser]

Todd, thank you for recommending this running book and providing a synopsis . . . it's just the info I was looking for after an experience with running injury from not working gradually enough on base, and another experience with getting slower from ONLY working on base and not doing other quality training sessions.

[Todd S]

A few last comments...

Calling what I or anyone else does to program a 2 to 4 hour training week "periodization" is giving it WAY too much credit. It's more like simply a way to mix things up and prevent the staleness that soon sets in when doing the same thing week after week.

Providing any more detail to a heart rate prescription than a couple of general cues during each class is probably a waste of everybody's time.

Your chances of providing "too much intensity" for a seasoned Spinning participant who shows up two or three times per week is minimal. Personally, I only use 'endurance' on days following my most intense classes. Usually nothing more than a reminder to 'ride easy when your legs don't feel fresh' or 'don't be afraid to take a day off when you don't feel like riding' will ensure that most folks don't overreach or overtrain. New folks, just remind 'em to take a few weeks to make sure they can get through class relatively comfortably before they start pushing themselves harder. After all, these are two to three hour training weeks, not 10+ hour training weeks.

Last I checked, Joe Friel and Chris Carmichael haven't developed programs for the '2-hour training week'. With 3 X 45 training weeks, if folks just come in on a regular basis and ride hard they're 90% of the way to some pretty decent fitness for the average Joe. The fact that MDA could develop a continuing ed program with classes and conventions based on something so simple is marketing genius in my most humble opinion.

[Todd S]

Todd, thank you for recommending this running book and providing a synopsis . . . it's just the info I was looking for after an experience with running injury from not working gradually enough on base, and another experience with getting slower from ONLY working on base and not doing other quality training sessions.

Janet,

Best 20 bucks you'll ever spend if you're a self coached runner.

[allterrain/guest]

After 160 entries, a lot of arguments and some unpleasanteries, I've go to admit that I've been totaly wrong in my interpretation of the indoor cycling concept. Mainly through Todd's comments and arguments, I've realised that I've (indeed) tried to make "world-class athletes" out of my clients, using training principles that absolutely don't fit their capibilities or needs.
This makes me feel pretty (not to say very, very..) stupid. I should have known better, but because of my ultra-background and the Spinning & CE-courses I thought I knew it all...
But then again, it's better to feel stupid and learn from it, than to feel superior and be wrong.. For what is worth, I want to appologise to the people I've called ignorant and "not knowing their business", cause it turned out that the only one who obviously was totaly "off" in this matter was me.
Maybe it IS time to re-write the manual..

[AC]

In most cases, what Todd has been writing about probably represents over 90% of the participants who normally take Spinning/Indoor cycling as their cardio form of workout 2-4 times a week. The rest would be better served in a facility like Allterrian's where there is a more long term approach to training and competing in events that require more precise methods.

As a business practice, knowing what applies to your own workplace and marketing a sucessful local program makes no one ignorant, just pragmatic.

[Todd S]

After 160 entries, a lot of arguments and some unpleasanteries, I've go to admit that I've been totaly wrong in my interpretation of the indoor cycling concept. Mainly through Todd's comments and arguments, I've realised that I've (indeed) tried to make "world-class athletes" out of my clients, using training principles that absolutely don't fit their capibilities or needs.
This makes me feel pretty (not to say very, very..) stupid. I should have known better, but because of my ultra-background and the Spinning & CE-courses I thought I knew it all...
But then again, it's better to feel stupid and learn from it, than to feel superior and be wrong.. For what is worth, I want to appologise to the people I've called ignorant and "not knowing their business", cause it turned out that the only one who obviously was totaly "off" in this matter was me.
Maybe it IS time to re-write the manual..

My apologies for turning up the heat and throwing fastballs.

'Validation' is a big part of my real job in the pharmaceutical industry, so supporting an argument comes as kind of second nature to me. That's why I participate in forums such as these though... Not just for information exchange, but forcing myself to logically think through and support a point of view is an extremely valuable learning tool in my opinion... especially when someone is giving a counter argument a lot of thought. Without someone to debate, we're never forced to assemble information into coherent concepts and beliefs.

Don't hold your breath on that manual re-write. To many people in this industry make a living on making this way harder than it has to be. The methods and protocols are extremely simple. The underlying physiology is complex. People in this industry seem to try to turn it all backwards. They turn the methods of 'how to train' into something that's way too complex (no offense to anyone, but all the Sally Edwards stuff is a prime example), and they reduce the physiology to something so childishly simple that it's often just plain wrong.

Thank you all for the discussion.

Thanks to Todd and to All Terrain for a very interesting discussion.

Also, I would like to give credit to Allterrain for being big enough to admit when he was wrong. Too many times, our pride prevents us from admitting that we can actually learn from each other, and that sometimes, we need to agree to disagree, and many more times than that, there are valid points and useful information to be taken from everyone who contributes.

Great discussion!

Paula

[spinnergirl]

dido to what Paula said !
It was a very interesting discussion, one where I learned a lot.. I actually am going to print this thread and study it ! (do we get any Star points?.. :lol: just kiddin!)
anyways, did you notice that although this thread was sometimes very fiery :twisted: , nobody shut it down or controlled what was written ? :wink: pretty cool !
everybody was able to prove their points ! this is a great forum !


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[spinnergirl]

oups... :oops: computer trouble !... sorry about the duplicate..

[hammertime]

Although I did not contribute to this thread (Todd and Allterrain, U da men!!), I must say I thoroughly enjoyed it. What I enjoyed the most was that the discussion had an opportunity to reach a peak whereby resolution and understanding could evolve.

Awesome!!!

[Christian spinner]

allterain~
Your awesome dude. I admire your willingness to humble thy self in the sight of your peers. To admit your wrong and to apoligize to all those you have bashed is admirable. I respect that and find that incredible. For a minute there I thought I was going to faint :lol: . I couldn't believe what I was reading. Very Cool!! Thank you and apoligy accepted. I hope everyone gets to read this.
Todd~ Your a breath of fresh air. I learned a lot from you. Thank you for your input. We live in the real world with real everyday hard working people who want us to give them the ride of their life.
Keep riding and looking up! :wink:
Debbi