Tour Starts with a Bang

[JFK]

Hee hee, the fun starts from the gun! Poor Jan. Watching the Lance pass Jan was like watching a pro pass a club rider. Amazing. Talk about Psy. Ops.

[spin-up]

Hee hee, the fun starts from the gun! Poor Jan. Watching the Lance pass Jan was like watching a pro pass a club rider. Amazing. Talk about Psy. Ops.

You enjoyed that eh! Well have to admit Jan couldn't have start any worse.... first the smash thru the car window and now this. Well maybe the humiliation will give him wings!!

And congrats with Zabriskie! Hell were did all these yanks come from!

Any of you guys watching the tour this year? the forum seems a bit frozen? most of our sportforums are off air untill the end of the days etappe, then the fun starts!

Any bets? :lol: Vino, Amstrong, Jan (hm), Basso?

[JFK]

Really hard to call at this point. We'll have to see how everyone does as we head into the mountains. The TTT isn't nearly as much fun with the new rules, but it still adds excitement. Phonak and CSC and T-Mobile all have powerful teams, and the Disco boys of course.

It is amazing all the Yanks in the peloton these days, isn't it? And while more Americans are now dimly aware of cycling (and that Lance guy), I'll bet most of them couldn't name three other Americans (or even one) in the European peloton....

[raptor]

I'm sorry to say that this is shaping up to be a TdF more boring than most, even last year's. With significant time gaps on every serious challenger, Lance has it wrapped up.

"Boring" is relative. It won't stop me from watching, and there's always the chance of a miracle or disaster (depending on your point of view).

Lynn

[spin-up]

Right -if you watch the tour for the game, and the winner, it will be boring, Lance will take over command right after the team trials next week, and will only have to follow in the mountains and.. BINGO!

However, stars and stripes in the end or not.. I still enjoy every second of the rides.. watch them work together or kill each other, watch the war of exhaustion. LA may not be the most exiting too watch, so smart and calculated, but that's obviously what it takes to become a champion!

[Patrick]

I have to agree that absent a crash or illness, the Tour is Lance's to lose. I wouldn't count Basso out yet. The (Spanish) climbers may make this interesting, too.

[madcyclist]

Y'all haven't figured it out yet, but, it will be apparent soon.

Jan is the decoy. Watch Vino. Remember the last time Vino was in the Tour - it was mayheim. Telekom is sitting exactly where they want to be and believe it or not, it's not about Ullrich (that's the plan). Telekom is willing to do WHATEVER it takes to win the Tour even if that means leaving Zabel home (which is what they did). What makes you think they are going to rely on a headcase (Jan)? Vino has proven to be the stronger, more hungrier rider and that's what they need - someone's who personality and demeanor matches Lance's.

We are going to see the Tour we should have seen last year.

You heard it first on MAD TV.
--

[Cheeze]

Ya know Mad there may be some merit to what you posted but I just can't see Jan wearing lieutenant stripes for Vino. And as far as that ITT - Jan can claim all he wants that he was 100% - but there is no way in #$LL. Talk to anyone who had whiplash and they will tell you the pain from those types of injuries manifests its self 24-48 afterward or in Jan's case about TT time. There is no way he could have gotten comfortable in an aero position and IMO it showed in the way he rode and in his time. But even after getting passed by LA in Stage 1 he is still in the top 20 after today. I think Telecom will have a situation similar to the Lakers with Kobe and Shaq.

I have to agree with JFK. I think this is all too soon to tell. I want to see how strong this (never been a stronger) Discovery Team truly is before I hand the race and the jersey over to Lance. Who's going to break wind and pull LA in the mountains? Eki's at home and Floyd is gone. Is Popo this years stud? On paper CSC, Phonak and Discovery have improved significantly. I guess we'll start to see how much on Tuesday. One thing is for sure - Phil Liggett has not missed a beat.

While watching Lance discover how strong is team is - I'll also be watching Floyd (and Botero) and Phonak.

This is still a bit quacky for me.

The Cheezism

[Patrick]

Alexandre Vinokourov is an awesome and very clever rider. Clearly he will attack. However, losing 51 seconds to Lance in a 19K TT clearly indicates he is racing for 2nd place. Vinokourov cannot out-climb or out TT Lance. It's too bad. I would like to see an interesting race. This is Lance's race to lose.

[madcyclist]

"Alexandre Vinokourov is an awesome and very clever rider. Clearly he will attack. However, losing 51 seconds to Lance in a 19K TT clearly indicates he is racing for 2nd place. Vinokourov cannot out-climb or out TT Lance. It's too bad. I would like to see an interesting race. This is Lance's race to lose."

Vino can't out climb Lance? Maybe. But knowing this I think Vino won't put himself in this situation if he is smart. He'll use this strength which is what you mentioned "attacking". Remember the ride to Gap 2-3 years ago? Lance and Beloki were trying to chase down an attacking Vino and looked what happened. So you may ask, why didn't Vino win then? Well Vino was a terrible ITT-ist. But look at what he [Vino] has been working on - bettering his ITT ability. Yes, Vino is down to Lance by 51 seconds but the mountains await. Even Lance (who has been down in his prebvious TdFs) says the race is won in the mountains. Well, I think Vino and Telekom are anxiously awaiting for them this year as well. Patrick as you said, look for Vino to attack - every chance he gets and look for Telekom to block when he does. It's going to be WWII all over again.

"Alexandre Vinokourov is an awesome and very clever rider. Clearly he will attack. However, losing 51 seconds to Lance in a 19K TT clearly indicates he is racing for 2nd place. Vinokourov cannot out-climb or out TT Lance. It's too bad. I would like to see an interesting race. This is Lance's race to lose."

Cheese, there was an article on velonews that talked about why Telekom the team wasn't success in their quest to win a TdF and to derail LA's winning streak. The article talked about how they stacked the team with superstarts (the likes of Savoldelli, Zabel, Botero, Vino, Kloden, and even now Sevilla) but the management is so screwed up on the Telekom, non of the members want to win for them. Look at how the superstars who left the team are flourishing: Savoldellli is having a great year winning the Giro, Botero is having a great year as well. Even Ulrich had a sucess tenure with Bianchi - he looked very strong when he returned to the TdF with Bianchi. The Telekom management is b*tching about how these guys "sandbagged" but they [the Mgt] did it to themselves buy setting the tone.

So far as for Ulrich not wanting to play second fiddle, he doesn't have a choice - Ulrich stock isn't riding too high after his dismal recent TdF performances. Who wants him at his contract value? So he will do as he is told. If not, well ... you know the Ray Charles song .... "Hit the road, Jack .... I think this is it for ole boy Jan; Telekom is his last stop.
--

[raptor]

I really, really like Vino. He's always ready to mix it up, and he's cagey. The LA interview aired during Stage 1 had Lance suggesting that Vino is the strongest rider on Telekom, so no one's going to be surprised.

Don't count out Davey Z! He's a pretty good climber, and was designiated to be one of Basso's helpers in the mountains. Though he's a local boy (SLC), I can't say I ever met him.

I'm still predcicting a LA win by a huge margin. I'll watch every minute anyway.

Lynn

[Patrick]

Mad,

Vino was very clever yesterday. I also expect that he will have a couple of more stages where he picks up seconds. Lance continues to demonstrate that he is both good and lucky -- a hard combination to beat. I can't wait to see the climbers attack Lance and Vino.

[spin-up]

I can't wait to see the climbers attack Lance and Vino.

Well.... satisfied?

My friends - let me introduce: PIETER WEENING!!!! a tour debutant who went alone - on the first etappe of some importance. From the very north of Holland, raised in a family with 10 kids, only 24 years old. And he did it! And how!

Did you all get to see the gearing? 53X19 on a steep climb and he kept going, and going, and going -untill Kloden stole away the top. And Pieter got so mad about this that he decided Kloden wasn't going to get the etappe!!! He put his cards on the sprint and HEY see what happened!

And where were all the Discoveries? LA was so isolated, even took Jan's wheel for a while. And where did all those T-Mobiles come from?

will it be an exiting game -after all? :wink:

[stephbc]

I still say they just gave the win to him. You couldn't even tell who crossed the line first. What a great stage though... :)

[Cheeze]

So did team Discovery and LA show signs of weakness today........or is Lance playing poker again and Johan held the boys back to keep them fresh for all the anticipated attacks on Stage 9. Nice when you "have a bad day" and you don't loose any ground in the GC.

I love cheering on the underdog and subsequently love being introduced to the Zabrinskie's and Weening's of this years tour.

Heading off to bed so I see the start of tomorrow's 7/10 marathon 171 km climbing stage. Can't wait to see how it all sorts out when they reach Mulhouse. The last 55km should go by quick! Man I'm glad I don't live on the West Coast with their 3:30AM start time.

The Cheezism

[spin-up]

and yet another Rabobank!! and another exiting etappe!

btw Lance playing poker? NO WAY!! his face doesn't look poker today it looks mad, angry, thunderstorm!!

a possible deal could be, with maybe Vino taking over the leaders position in Discovery next year, in return he won't keep LA from winning this year


oh, and @stepbc.. noone was given the win! there was a real 9 mm difference which is about the width of your nail! :wink:

[madcyclist]

LA & Discovery have to give up the jersey in order to get a grip on what is going on. Rabobank came out of the wood works. Johan planned on CSC being in the mix as T-Mobile. But with everyone using the last couple of days to gain time back on LA, this is forcing Johan to punt and re-eval. I think Johan & LA are going to have to pick their battles (just as LA mentioned in at the post stage 8 interview) and hope they are guessing right.

I'm beginning to think that there may be some young and hungry kid out there that is going to "shock the world". This is a prime opportunity for someone to come out of the wood works and take the Tour by the neck while the heavies are shadow boxing; Vino was that kid 2-3 years ago but he didn't have the advantage like these guys do now, plus he was a poor TT.

Poor Zabrinski, from the highest of the highs to the lowest of the lows. But this is a learning experience for him.

LA sure could use Tommy Danielson about right now.
--

[madcyclist]

BTW Lance predicted that there will be a crash in the mountains. Hope he wasn't jinxing himself.
--

[JFK]

That's what I thought he said, too, but if you listen closely (vive le DVR) he said many riders would "crash" in terms of how far back they were on GC.

[Legspeed]

In the inimitable words of Paul Sherwin, there was "complete and utter carnage" done to the field on the final climb to Courcheval. Out of respect to those waiting to watch for themselves, that's all I'll say here. I'll put a spoiler post detailing the damage.

[spin-up]

if you haven't watched (YET!) than stop reading





if you have... well... Vino and Ullrich at least had their 1 day of hopes and dreams
now back to reality

(at least, we had an exiting 2 days!!)
(btw Rasmussen isn't much of a tt rider)

[joanhan]

Vino. Done. Dead.

[Cheeze]

It will be interesting to see how much today's stage took out of Team Discovery and LA - and what strategy Johan sets down for the Discovery boys tomorrow 7/13 as they again ride the mountains. Surround your leader and keep him safe or set a fast tempo and attack the crest of Col Galibier knowing there are two "flatter" stages on the horizon. At least Stage 11 is only 173km and a downhill finish.

I think that final climb up Galibier is going to sound like your morning bowl of Rice Krispes - snap, crackle and pop.

Gotta give Rasmussen his props. He was right there on the last two mountain stages - and essentially unsupported. We'll see if he hoists up the white flag tomorrow or if he still has his climbing legs on.

Would love to be a soigneur at the T-Mobile supper table tonight. Will probably sound like the Yankee locker room when they were on that losing streak. Will someone please stand up and take charge!

The Cheezism

[Patrick]

The fat lady hasn't started to sing yet.

[Legspeed]

Veni, vedi, Vino!

There's racing to win....and there's racing for pride.

[madcyclist]

Which one is Armstrong racing for?
--

[raptor]

Patrick, the fat lady is warming up.

I predict a "normal" tour from now on. LANCE wlil win. Possibly with his largest advantage ever, but only based on the strength of his TT prowess. He won't risk his team just to pad his lead.

LANCE has yet to win a road stage, so it will be interesting to watch him continue to try. Vino will continue to attack and chip away. Levi and Floyd will have a good day apiece, at least.

The battle for 2nd place will be exciting. The battle for the green jersey will be interesting, maybe intense.

Lynn

[AC]

Which one is Armstrong racing for?
--

I think at this point, he's beyond just racing for another TDF victory. This guy is up there for the all time athletic accomplishments in sports history without adding in all of the sociological impact he has and the debt he pays to cancer sufferers and survivors. There are people in the gym who arent even interested in Spinning, much less cycling, and they are discussing what he did the previous day.

30 years from now when Hollywood makes the "Cinderella Man" version of his life story, another generation will find his story and accomplishments almost unbelievable.

[stephbc]

I thought that movie was already in the works with Matt Damon as Lance...

[madcyclist]

I think at this point, he's beyond just racing for another TDF victory. This guy is up there for the all time athletic accomplishments in sports history without adding in all of the sociological impact he has and the debt he pays to cancer sufferers and survivors. There are people in the gym who arent even interested in Spinning, much less cycling, and they are discussing what he did the previous day.

30 years from now when Hollywood makes the "Cinderella Man" version of his life story, another generation will find his story and accomplishments almost unbelievable.

I largely agree with what you are saying here. But where with the cycle greats will Lance be placed? Well that will be an eternal debate, but, I think everyone agrees hands-down that Merkx was the greatest ROAD cyclist in the cycling world. Major Taylor who was really key starting it all gets overlooked all of the time - have you seen an clip on the life or contributions of this guy so far? Not yet and you most likely won't. Yeah he was a track guy, but, the whole concept of stage racing (which the TdF is) came out of their grueling 6-day race back in the early 1900s.

I say all of this to say, we have to temper Lance accomplishments all be it they are great (including his come back from cancer). How will Lance fair in the eyes of the Euro cycling historians? Let's don't forget the sport of cycling grew out of Europe. It just like how will baseball historians remember Itchiro or basketball historians remember Yao Ming - no they haven't won a championship (yet) but they are great players.

Does the Euro sports community recognize Jack Johnson as a great boxer? What about Rocky Marciano?

It's all relative and in the eyes of the HIS-STORY.
--

[AC]

One of the answers is to differentiate individual sports from team sports. Then athletes who are ground breaking, who cross sociological barriers and become firsts in their respective sport. Ichiro is not the first Japanese player to play in MLB, but he is the first to be rated in the highest echelon in the game (I have an Ichiro tee-shirt). Yao Ming is not a "great" player in the NBA (Shaq, Garnett, Duncan,Kobe and a few others are at the upper echelon), but he's a very good player and he is the first Asian player to play at an "All-Star" level and his mere presence in international competition is watched by a far greater number of people than would normally watch a basketball game. The one athlete that probably had the most impact in any American sport in the 20th Century was Jackie Robinson. Was he the greatest player ever, not really, but he was the most significant "first" of anyone in our country.

A boxer (individual sport) holding a title, particularlyin the era of Jack Johnson or even up to Rocky Marciano, is easy to evaluate for the present. He's the champion until someone beats him. How a boxer is evaluated historically is the length he holds the title and how many contenders he fights during this time. Any individual sport can be evaluated this way, including cycling, which is what makes LA so special. He defeated everyone they put in front of him in the most prestigious single event in the world for 6 straight years and is heading for a seventh. He's beaten everyone the Euro/Global community has put in front of him. If they want to take him off the pedestal, go beat him on a bike.

[Legspeed]

Excuse me, but LA is only "special" with regards to the TdF. Although the Tour is very popular, it's often not the "A" race for many. Many Italians focus on the Giro, as many Spaniards target the Vuelta. So to say he's beaten the best of today's "Eurocyclists" is misleading in that many do not show up to the TdF in top form. It's more prestigious to an Italian or Spaniard to win the Giro or Vuelta, respectively, than to win the TdF.

Now if LA were winning year-round, like Merckx, THEN I would agree he would have something strut about.

However, I agree that LA has been far better, for seven straight years, than those that DO target this race - the French.

As for historical perspective, even after 6 straight victories, he has fewer yellow jerseys than Merckx or Hinault earned in 5.

[Cheeze]

Keep in mind that cycling did not really hit the airwaves and start to gain the attention of most American's until LA started winning the TDF and OLN (and the rest of the medias) jumped on board. We did not grow up watching cycling like we grew up watching baseball, football or basketball on TV. Subsequenlty most Americans don't know much about the history of the tour or any of the other cycling events. Armstrong is all they know - so of course he will be held in high regard. And yes because he is such a hot commodity right now it's only a matter of time before the movies come out. The media has made the TDF the Super Bowl of cycling and as is the case in football - no one remembers anything about the season except the winner of the SB.

Getting back to the tour I think Rubiera's abandoning today may come back to hurt Armstrong. I think he was a big part of the plan during the final week. IMO the race is next week in the Pyrenees unless Armstrong exploits Rasmussen in the TT on Saturday. Rasmussen has shown that he is strong in the mountains and a pest that LA and Discovery can not shake. If Rasmussen puts in another effort like Stage 9 he could put Armstrong into difficulty. I think you'll see the polka dot jersey riding on the end of the lt blue train in the mountains waiting for his chance to attack. I don't see Rabobank giving him the support he will need.

Just what I think. Good to see AC involved in the discussion. (I have visions of him sitting in front of his computer while wearing a Packer tshirt.

The Cheezism

[madcyclist]

Yao Ming is not a "great" player in the NBA (Shaq, Garnett, Duncan,Kobe and a few others are at the upper echelon), but he's a very good player and he is the first Asian player to play at an "All-Star" level and his mere presence in international competition is watched by a far greater number of people than would normally watch a basketball game.

So do very good players make the All Star game? I thought for the very fact they call it the ALL STAR game implies that the player is considered a great in the eyes of the fans and his/her peers. There are a lot of very good players out there who don't make the All Star game. Why don't they get invitations? Or maybe it's the diversity thing, the NBA commision wants to have an Asian in the All Star game so they let Yao slip in. Yao's countrymen as well as others in and out the USA vehemently differ with your assessment of Yao's status. I'd bet you the American version of Yao's story would greatly differ from the Chinese version.

He's the champion until someone beats him. How a boxer is evaluated historically is the length he holds the title and how many contenders he fights during this time. Any individual sport can be evaluated this way, including cycling, which is what makes LA so special. He defeated everyone they put in front of him in the most prestigious single event in the world for 6 straight years and is heading for a seventh. He's beaten everyone the Euro/Global community has put in front of him. If they want to take him off the pedestal, go beat him on a bike.

Speedy beat me to the punch on this one but I want to add something here. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKIN' ABOUT. This is a typical AMERICAN view based on the media propaganda and hype. Lance has been beaten in MOST of his races. Remember he doesn't just race the TdF. Does this make him the "champ" according to your definintion? But the American media has you (plural) duped into thinking that the TdF is the ONLY race that means something and that the "champ" is determined by the winner of the TdF. WRONG! Any cycling fan know that the sport is a season full of different types of races. What other MAJOR tour has Lance won? Pantani can lay claim to 2 (Giro and TdF and that was in the same year). Merkx, well, his record speaks for itself. Hinault and Merkx dominated their competitors in more phases of their sport than Lance has. Yes Lance wins the TdF (so far), but, to say his is the champ? Champ of what? The sport of cycling is bigger than the TdF. This may be hard for Americans to believe but ... Don't believe the hype.

For Lance to be the "champ" he has to win at least another grand tour. He knows this and he knows what his legacy will be in the eyes of the European cycling community. His place in history will be coloured by those who tells his story (as usual). Can you even say that Lance is the greatest cycling in America (USA or Canada)? Some would argue about that too. He would get his butt kicked in a crit or on the track. When is the last time Lance won in San Francisco? Yes, he has won the Tour de GA.

Yes, Lance has done a lot for the sport of cycling in the USA, but, again, it as to be temper. But as typical Americans, we aspire to be the best and the biggest, and the winning the American media has painted winning the TdF fits this criteria to be so.

Again, I'm not to take anything away from his accomplishments, but, you have to look at the big picture and put things into perspective.
--

[raptor]

Don't let me put a damper on a spirited discussion, but who cares?

Merckx didn't cheat death from advanced cancer before his wins. Fast Eddy didn't become an inspiration to 1/3rd to 1/2 of modern humanity who've been touched in some way by cancer.

Lance isn't the greatest bike racer of all time, but he is undeniably the greatest Tour de France rider of all time. And a cultural demigod.

Lynn

[AC]

I meant to say that no one's defeated him in the TdF, which raptor expressed perfectly. I don't remember saying anything else other than that either. He is the champ of THAT race until someone beats him.

I just look at the TdF as a (not THE) "major" championship of that sport of individual competition, just like Wimbledon is a major championship is for tennis, The Masters is a major championship for golf, or Daytona is a major championship for Nascar. Whoever wins the most times is the greatest championship of that particular event. Because it's an event in a season of events, all of the sports rank the participants with some sort of point totals that rank them at the end of the season. I'm sure there is some guy who is the #1 ranked cyclist so far for 2005. Post a link, let's read more about him.

If you really want to know how Yao Ming is doing click here. http://cbs.sportsline.com/nba/playerrankings/regularseason/OVERALL

He's a very good player. He's the best player in China. It's fun to watch him develope over his career.

[JFK]

I find it interesting that Eddy has been quoted as saying that he couldn't win today the way he did in his day, because the sport has become so much more specialized (and whether that's good or bad is a whole 'nother discussion). Racers focus on the classics or the grand tours (or one grand tour) but rarely both. They peak in time for particular races instead of racing into form, as one more or less did (with the exception of Lemond and a few others) until Lance came along. He dragged cycling training into a much more scientific era. Not that no one else was doing it before him, but he certainly refined it, and as a result, we have many more riders who contest races much more selectively than they did in the past. I think Lynn put it best - it's the whole story that makes Lance so interesting and inspiring. Heck, he was a phenom. after one Tour win because of his come-back from aggressive cancer. Taking six (and perhaps one more) is icing on the cake. And the dominant way in which he has done it is remarkable as well. Doesn't take away from other riders, and I will still be following cycling as avidly as ever when he's gone, but it is one heck of a story.

[Legspeed]

I see this discussion bifurcating along two different themes. The first is the marvel of survivorship. The second is what comprises historical greatness. Co-mingling the two shortens the yardstick.

AC nailed it. The TdF is just one, albeit prestigious, event. LA has never finished first in the UCI (now the Pro Tour) rankings. Danilo DiLuca is the current leader for 2005.

As for Mr. Merckx, I think he was just being his usual gracious self, saying he couldn't win today like he did in his day. When you've won more races than a certain other cyclist has even entered...well that kinda speaks for itself.

[AC]

Now here's something I don't understand about cycling. In golf, tennis, auto racing, track and field, an athlete will try to win a series of these events in a year, or accumulate a number of "major" championships over their career or Olympic medals. Why does cycling seem geared up for this one race? If this is not so, why are the LeMonds and Mercyx's of the world known primarily for winning this one particular race as defining their careers?

[Legspeed]

By "cycling world", I assume you are referring to the French and American media and public. If that's so, the answer to why "everyone" is geared up for this race is simple: it's the French's Superbowl and we're winning it.

The reasons LeMond is so closely associated with the TdF is: 1) He's the first American to ever win it, and 2) apart from a couple of World Championships, the TdF is the only race of note that LeMond ever won. (My apologies to the fans of the "grueling" Coors Classic and the Tour Dupont, both of which LeMond also won.)

Merckx is considered one of the TdF's all-time greats not only because he won it 5 times, but, if memory serves, he's the the only modern winner (i.e. post WWII) to win every competition (GC, sprint, and climbing) within the race in the same year.

However, the TdF represents a only portion of his glory:

The Grand Tours
5x Tour de France
5x Giro d'Italia
1x Vuelta a Espana

Other Tours
2x Ronde van Belgie/Tour de Belgium
1x Tour de Suisse

Classics
7x Milan - San Remo
5x Liege - Bastogne - Liege
3x Paris - Roubaix
2x Giro di Lombardia

4x World Champion
17 6-day races

1972 set the hour record

[madcyclist]

Now here's something I don't understand about cycling. In golf, tennis, auto racing, track and field, an athlete will try to win a series of these events in a year, or accumulate a number of "major" championships over their career or Olympic medals. Why does cycling seem geared up for this one race?

Marketing, marketing, marketing ... In the sport of cycling the same holds true. As Speedy alluded "best rider" is determined by who accumulates the most points in the UCI system. This is what we call in the local cycling racing community a "best all round" (or BAR) racer. Paulo Bettini has lead in the BAR categories off and on over the years. Now its DiLuca. Lance isn't interested in competing in this competition and that can be an argument used to temper his career as a "great cyclist". The marketing sells you on this ONE BIG race that EVRYONE is gearing up for. But the TRUTH is that in the European raing circuit, they ride many more Pro Tours than Lance does. That's what made Pantani's accomplishment so great.

Imagine if Tiger just focus on winning the Masters and skip most of the other PGA tournies. Would he held as highly regarded as he is now?

My point is that Pro cycling is not different from the other sports you mentioned, but, Lance doesn't participate in the sport like the others. He choices to focus on the TdF (the Masters of Cycling).

If this is not so, why are the LeMonds and Mercyx's of the world known primarily for winning this one particular race as defining their careers?

LeMond and Merkx are highlighted for their accomplishments in the Tour, but, that's only part of their careers. They rode full seasons. In Merkx cases, it didn't matter what race he competed in, he demolished his competition. LeMond, well, he was the first American to really make waves in modern cycling.

Lance's legacy will be the 7 times back-toback winner of the TdF who overcame cancer - can't take that away from him and this is a great human story. But in cycling realm, his legacy will be that he focus too much on winning one race. Yes it is a big one (maybe the biggest), but, there will always be questions about his resiliency throughout an entire Pro season; in other words, how great would he be if he did more Pro Tours and Classics like Bettini, DiLuca, and the other past UCI "BAR" winners.
--

[spin-up]

Stupid how Ullrich keeps bringing LA back (to get Vino) - I don't get it.... the T-mobiles don't seem to understand that Vino is their teamMATE!! What a lousy policy in this team!! It's all about King Jan - while their force (I think) is somewhere else

Vino, whatever the offer is from Discovery, GO GO GO!!

for the rest..
If you haven't watched today's etappe, don't miss it. it was cool

[JFK]

I agree, Vino deserves better. I couldn't believe they chased him down not once, but TWICE. The other teams are all shaking their heads, or giggling under their breath.

Today was marvelous. I'm so happy for George. And go Disco, with yellow and white jerseys and a stage win.

[Cheeze]

I agree Jennifer Good for George. And good for Johan for letting him stay up in front and ride for the stage. And speaking of marketing - how long before everyone is wearing Hincapie signature eye gear?

Seems like the trend for this years tour is the Discovery team rides strong every-other day. So............with a rest day tomorrow Tuesday should be another good day to finish the mountains.

I hope someone from Team Ullrich writes a book after this years tour so we can find out what the heck is going on with that team.

Man I hate rest days!!!! I've gotten into a really nice rhythm of watching the tour.

The Cheezism

[Legspeed]

I'll take the counter-point on T-Mo chasing down Vino...I say he got exactly what he deserved.

I admit to being flabbergasted when he was chased down the first time. After all, you just don't do that. However, the second chase made it plain that Vino was acting on his own and not following the team strategy. He doesn't understand or accept his role on the team and for that, I blame Godefroot, the DS.

A textbook example of how a team implodes. T-Mo should improve greatly next year without the services of Vino and a new DS.

[JFK]

I wonder if TMO will have (or want) the services of Jan? It seems to me that his time has come and gone. He just doesn't have what it takes. Maybe he was really ready to make it happen before his crash prior to stage 1 (and I just read the story of how that happened, just stupid on Mario Kummer's part...he didn't slow down at a roundabout and a truck cut them off and he couldn't warn Jan before slamming on the brakes. Just dumb, dumb, dumb.) but he certainly doesn't have it now. Kind of sad, really, all that squandered talent.

It will be interesting to see where TMO goes from here. Goodefroot's time has come and gone, too.....

[madcyclist]

I don't know what in the hell T-Mo was doing out there yesterday, but, it's no secret that Vino does what he wants to do when he feels like it. Even to the dismay of the plan and the team - wonder how he is going to fair with Bruyneel.

T-Mo has once again showed their ineptness and lack of strategy (strategy does not equal tactics). I think they came in with a "strategy" that was out of line with their competition (primarily Disco). And history shows that tactics is nothing without a strategy.

How about this hiney-hole (to the right of Oscar P. running along side of him in front of the moto w/ the Basque flag):

http://www.velonews.com/images/details/8527.12006.f.jpg

And then the part I was ROmfFL on:

http://www.velonews.com/images/details/8527.12005.f.jpg

I hope that motor-ref intentionally ran this guy over. And I WOULDN'T BLAME HIM. I would have sent the same message. I hope he was burnt by the moto exhaust pipe! Somebody forgot to tell this fool that the running of the bulls is over and it was in Pamplona, SPAIN. Glad it wasn't the guy in the Disco jersey.

We will probably see him again tomorrow getting his a$$ ran over again.

LMmfAO!

Goto www.velonews.com to see the larger photos.
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[yvonne]

i just thought everyone was too busy watching the tour to think about this site! But here you are ~ i must admit it's been pretty predictable up until this week!

Go Georgie! Go Paulo ~ who's next? Popo? or Chechu?

can't wait till the ITT!

My best friend has a room booked near the eiffel tower, and will be there as the boys ride into Paris! i'm so jealous i could spit! Hoping he has some great photos to share ~ and of course, i'll share them wth you!

[Cheeze]

Y it's good to hear from you. I figured you were too tired to post with having to get up at 4:30A and 5:30A to starting watching OLN coverage. I'm thinking you're not gonna TVO or VHS.

The TT on Saturday is going to be great and may be Lance's stage win - but I'm waiting for Sunday to see what Team Discovery and the rest of the cycling community has planned for LA's last ride.

On Sunday - Is Bob Roll going to finally win on a Trek Lucky 7 ticket?

The Cheezism II

[RaffCycles]

Looking at the GC after today's stage makes me think the official language of the Peloton is shifting to American English.

[JFK]

Yes, but at least there's still Phil and Paul to keep the English-isms alive!

[yvonne]

mine has to be putting your opponent into a "spot of bother," but i must admit, i still giggle everytime i hear phil say "leakygas" (liquigas).

[Cheeze]

Paul's guilty too. Today the TT "hotted up".

Man I wish I could go downstairs to the transporter room and get beamed up to Paris for the final champagne party tomorrow. But then again - who would be at the controls since Scotty passed away this week. He had those transporters ticking at a fantastic pace.

What are all those people and businesses who relied on Lance going to do after Sunday???? Is he really done????

The Cheezism II
--------------------------
If I rode 55km in 1:12:00 I'd probably have leakygas after the race.

[AC]

"In the last 25 years there have been three great athletes who hauled their sports to places they had never been before. Gretzky took hockey to the American West and South. Tiger took golf to people of color. And Armstrong took cycling into the cancer wards, delivering hope. No U.S. athlete has ever done more good with his talent than the cocky kid from Texas.

So thanks, Lance. It was a wonderful ride. "

I read my Sports illustrated each week on Sunday afternoon and my favorite writer is Rick Reilly who usually has the inside back cover piece. For me, this expresses my feelings also. An athlete who "does good" with his talent.

[madcyclist]

Well...

I just finished watching the finale of the 2005 Tour de France. And I was a little disappointed, but, this has been a disappointing Tour for me in general.

I thought the finale was a little anti-climatic. Yes, the mic was given to Lance to say a little and he chose used his air time to acknowledge his competitors, his team, and address the doubters of the sport. It was obvious that Lance wasn't prepared to address the world, maybe they sprung this opportunity on him. I think he was easily distracted too (referring to Lance allowing some person to disrupt him addressing Ullrich). He could have had some better words for his competition or at least have some idea of what he would say - I know he had to be practicing in the mirror last night about his big moment. C'mon!

But, reading the non-verbals on the podium, it appeared to me that there may have been some tension betweeb Lance and Jan. They really didn't engage each other talking or shaking hands. Maybe Jan may be a little bitter or Lance being arrogant or maybe a little of both.

I wonder how Kristen (Lance's ex) felt when she saw Sheryl Crow holding here little girl like she was her mother. Man, I would have like to have been a fly on the wall for hear that comment of explicatives.

But all in all, Lance stood a top the cycling world today and in his final glory as a Pro. From here he'll ride off into the sunset with his Trek never to ride again (at least in aother Tour - we'll see).

If he is gone for real, I guess the velonews photo says it all, he is leaving the Tour with his kids and looking to the future:

http://www.velonews.com/images/details/8603.12129.f.jpg

Vive le Tour and Armstrong.
--

[spin-up]

Post Scriptum


we're all TdF hangover, the radio only plays music (boooooooooring) - the tv is dead

for Rabo it was a good year, but still..

- the winner takes it all -



See you around next year!
Ciao -Clarien

[stephbc]

Do you really think she was watching to see Sheryl Crow holding her daughter?

As for Lance's farewell...I was hoping for a better speech as well. And I really thought there would be a little more ceremony to it but perhaps I was just expecting too much. Lots of cyclists retire so why should Lance get special treatment? I was just hoping I guess.

Next to "Leakygas" I think my favorite comment was "I believe he's lost his bottle!" I'd really never heard that one before...

I'm sad that it's over. Now I have to return my digital box and go without again. Sigh. Until next year.

[JFK]

A poster on another list pointed out that he didn't think Paul said "absolutely remarkable" once this year (I even re-viewed "the pass" on stage 1 to be sure..and he didn't) and, and, Phil pronounced Guerini's first name properly. Instead of "Guy-seppie" he said "Ju-seppie." <shaking head> Some things aren't meant to change, darn it.

I'm having post-Tour letdown syndrome. I have no idea what to focus on, can't seem to get excited about daily life. When does the Vuelta start?

[yvonne]

not till September, Jen! and even then the coverage is so much less. just on weekends, i think.

i actually think it was quite an honor for Lance to be able to speak ~ so uncharacteristic of the tour and its protocol. he wasn't at his most eloquent, i'll agree, but he did make some important points ~ i hope sports writers and july-only fans everywhere were listening. I"m with you, Mad .. i think there was a bit of a dig to Jan ... perhaps LA knows better, but i've got to give big Jan props for his battle back to the podium. Wihtout that, and poor Rassmussen's simply tragic TT, it probably would have been an even less eventful tour.

And what the heck was with Vino yesterday??? I know there were no gifts, but if the tour is nothing, it is all about tradition ~ yesterday belonged to the sprinters. I really felt like Vino had 2.5 weeks to do something, he didnt have to take whatever chance McEwen, O'Grady and McGee had to win back the Green. clearly, that whole scene has put me i a spot of bother!!

have they announced the dates for the 06 tour yet? i need to set my tv alarm :)

[madcyclist]

And what the heck was with Vino yesterday??? I know there were no gifts, but if the tour is nothing, it is all about tradition ~ yesterday belonged to the sprinters. I really felt like Vino had 2.5 weeks to do something, he didnt have to take whatever chance McEwen, O'Grady and McGee had to win back the Green. clearly, that whole scene has put me i a spot of bother!!

Sweetheart,

Vino is looking for a J-O-B. Hey, he is doing what he gotta do.

But I think it's too little too late. He'll probably end up on CA b/c I don't think Bruyneel wants any parts of him.
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[JFK]

Vino's going to be working with Mad Manolo over at Liberty Seguros. Now that oughta be interesting....

[spinderella]

Hey guys!
I am having post Tour blues as well!

I think Tdf 2006 will be very interesting without Lance.

At least there is still the Lance Interview on August 2 and 6 to look forward to. 8)