The perfect climb, how do you do it????

[love2spin]

I have been trying to perfect my climbing abilities. I love to climb, but feel like I am not smooth. I haven't been doing my strength routine for about 6-7 months. I can truely feel it on climbs. Do I have to go back to big bulky quad's and ham's to obtain that smooth fluent hill climb??

[SpeedyChix]

Usually, the best way to improve your hill climbing is to hill climb. You said that you weren't smooth. Here are some questions;

Does your cadence really get low?

Are you rocking back and forth?

Do you prefer to climb in/out of the saddle or a combination of the two?

What kind of hills are you talking about? Long/short/steep/gradual/etc.

Do you live in an area where you can do hill work?

Has your ability to climb improved or declined from the past?

Is your training similar to what it's been or has that changed?

How are you feeling?

How long have you been riding?

I ask lots of questions, the way you respond makes a difference in developing strategies to improve skills/abilities.

SpeedyChix

[RaffCycles]

Try not to let your cadence get too slow by shifting before you think you need to. In other words, don't let your cadence get close to , or below, 60 before you shift to an easier gear. This keeps you spinning at a higher cadence for a longer period of time. This takes practice and is difficult to master but it pays off.

Also, try not to go to your easiest gear unless you absolutely, positively, quads will explode if you don't go to it. This is a mental thing that always lets you know you have a "bail out" gear left, but you can manage without it. So train on hills that allow you to do this. Obviously, there are some hills where you can't save that last gear, but if you can, it always is reassuraing that I have one more gear if I need it.

If you alter between seated and standing climbs, shift to a harder gear before you stand to give you more power. Your cadence will naturally slow when you stand. When you return to the saddle, shift to an easier gear so you can spin faster in the saddle.

All of these techniques should be practiced on hills with light traffic so if you need to bail, you can turn either direction. Believe me when I say it's difficult to pull your foot out of the pedal cleats when you're going 4 MPH and the gravity anchor is dragging behind you.

In addition to the above, keep pedaling past the crest of the hill. Some folks stop once the hill does. Pick a mail box, street sign, mile marker or a tree that is past the rise of the hill and don't stop working until you get past that spot. You'll be surprised at how much distance on the rest of your group you can gain by pedaling hard for an extra 50 feet or so.

Weight room work will help, but I would not do too many sessions during your normal training week. Just climb hills and use them as your strength sessions each week.

I used to hate hills, now I try to seek them out on the routes I take. Hill climbing was and still is my weakness so the best way for me to work on my weakness is climbing hills whenever my training schedule calls for a strength workout.

Good luck and keep on spinning.

[BFSpin]

Great advice, Raff -

I've also found that it has helped a lot to ride with people who love to climb and learn from them . . . watch their form, both the hammerheads and the spinners . . . emulate their form and pace with them. Then climb your own climb, in your rhythm, in the way that you feel strongest.

Beth

[love2spin]

Usually, the best way to improve your hill climbing is to hill climb. You said that you weren't smooth. Here are some questions;

Does your cadence really get low? Yes

Are you rocking back and forth? Not too much while seated, maybe more while standing.

Do you prefer to climb in/out of the saddle or a combination of the two? Most of time in the saddle. On long steep climbs I will come up at the end of the climb. :shock:

What kind of hills are you talking about? Long/short/steep/gradual/etc. All types of hills. I live in Southern Ohio, so the hills are usually steep and not too long and winding. I am thinking 13-15% incline on most. :?:

Do you live in an area where you can do hill work? Oh yes, I can do hill work and I do.

Has your ability to climb improved or declined from the past? Declined I think. Last weekend, my quads actually seized up and I barely could get out of my clips. I looked down and I could see my quad muscle spasming. Is that a word???? :(

Is your training similar to what it's been or has that changed? Oh it has changed. I used to work out on weight machines 3-4 times a week. Now I hardly get time for leg work at all. I am teaching more classes and tired.

How are you feeling? :oops: OLD!!!

How long have you been riding? 7years
:lol:

I ask lots of questions, the way you respond makes a difference in developing strategies to improve skills/abilities.

thanks for asking! :lol:

SpeedyChix

[love2spin]

Thanks Raff

Good stuff! I am going to read it all over again and let it sink in.

:lol:

[SpeedyChix]

I'm familiar with the terrain in Southern Ohio, you're right, you've got plenty of climbing available!

What RaffCycles said is spot on. So I'd keep that on hand if I were you.

I began to write something else, but what keeps coming back to me after reading your email is your fatigue. That, especially if you've seen a decline in performance, may be key. I don't know how many times a week you teach, but that can, absolutely, make an affect on your speed/power/etc. Are you able to coach the ride and not do it? There are a limited number of times that you can 'go hard' in a week. Once a person hits that ceiling their fitness plateaus or spirals down.

When a person initially begins something there is no place to go but up, but after a while, especially with athletic performance, they will hit that ceiling and that is where you have to begin to train much smarter. I'm guessing that you're climbing technique/form is probably pretty good, especially because you 'used' to climb better.

Another thing and this may be none of my business, but according to your signature (which is funny), but you may be entering a natural biological process that can have an amazing affect on athletic performance, especially for that 'top end'. Are you keeping track of your cycle and how your training corrosponds?

Do you incorporate your classes in your training (you do keep a training log...right?)?

Also though there are a couple of things you mght want to do once a week training wise. They're not a secret and you probably already have Joe Friel's Cycling Bible, but hill cruise intervals are excellent ways to improve a person's hill climbing ability. The biggest thing I see when people are doing things like these kinds of drills is that they do them too often. These kinds of exercises are meant to be stopped if your performance is not allowing you to do the drill in the way that's the intensity you should be able to reach and then you don't try again in a day or two, but the next week.

I'd be happy to talk to you more about it, I'm just going on and on and I'm new to this forum so this may be a bit much. Feel free to message me if you'd like to continue the discussion.

SpeedyChix

[megale3]

What kind of hills are you talking about? Long/short/steep/gradual/etc. All types of hills. I live in Southern Ohio, so the hills are usually steep and not too long and winding. I am thinking 13-15% incline on most. :?:

At 13 to 15% grades that is a reason for your cadence to slow down. :P What are your RPM's like? do you have a computer that will tell you?

Hill repeats would be a good way to go out and get the correct work done. Then lets talk about your gearing on your bike. Is it a double, tripple or compact and what ratios are you using?
M

[love2spin]

What kind of hills are you talking about? Long/short/steep/gradual/etc. All types of hills. I live in Southern Ohio, so the hills are usually steep and not too long and winding. I am thinking 13-15% incline on most. :?:

At 13 to 15% grades that is a reason for your cadence to slow down. :P What are your RPM's like? do you have a computer that will tell you? Nope, no computer that tells me RPM's. I know the grades from other riders who have one of those gadgets that gives the incline.

Hill repeats would be a good way to go out and get the correct work done. Then lets talk about your gearing on your bike. Is it a double, tripple or compact and what ratios are you using?
I have a triple. I use mostly...get this my big one. I rarely go into my granny gears. I am what we call a "grinder". LOL..that could be my biggest problem.
No, honestly I think it isn't a smooth transition because I have forgotten how to shift into the steep ones. We have inclines, that get very steep, FAST. They are usually not too long, but steep. :shock:
M

You guys are great! You and speedy are asking me all the right questions.

[megale3]

May be a compact would be the best thing for you. I know JFK and Viv use one and they rave about them. I also have some friends that made noticeable improvents in climbing with them. Other than practice and good fuel - I would say change is gearing may help.
M

[love2spin]

Megale...tell me the advantages :idea: of the compact or anyone who has one. :?: My dh and I are looking into them.

I just can't figure out my problem.(Could be AGE) :evil: But I used to love to climb, climb, climb. Now my legs burn and sometimes I can actually see my quads having spasms. :x Never have had this before. I have to basically fall over. I can't even get my feet out of the clips.

What's up with that????

Maybe I ain't so hOt anymore after all. Might need to change my signature. Damn :evil:

[megale3]

[quote="love2spin"]Megale...tell me the advantages :idea: of the compact or anyone who has one. :?: My dh and I are looking into them. [/quote
The advantages are that you have a gear ratio that allows you to "spin" at cadences that will more reflect what your legs need to keep the muscles from contracting hard long enough to create an over abundance of LA. The ratio means easier to spin ,but then the draw back is, you spin out easier also. Wish JFK was in the house she can tell you what she digs about them if she checks in. I know that she has done the Mt Washington climb with hers and she swears by them. I have not graduated over to one yet but with some of my friends diggin them I may do it sooner than I expected. I am still able to move the regular 52/39 but every time I get on one of “those hills”, and I am looking for that extra bell out gear, in my mind I am doing a large amount of rationalization. :x
Meg
]

[lizardbiker]

Cal II has a 50-34 compact and we absolutely love it! Hopefully we'll still love it after this weekend doing 628 miles and over 49,000 feet of climbs.

With fewer teeth on the big gear you have to start coasting a bit earlier on descents, but I'm ok with that, as I'd rather have the gear ratios to help with the climbing. The 34 really helps with the steeper climbs.

[megale3]

Cal II has a 50-34 compact and we absolutely love it! Hopefully we'll still love it after this weekend doing 628 miles and over 49,000 feet of climbs.

With fewer teeth on the big gear you have to start coasting a bit earlier on descents, but I'm ok with that, as I'd rather have the gear ratios to help with the climbing. The 34 really helps with the steeper climbs.

Hey Liz I ahd no idea that you were doing the compact too. Gives me more thought about it on the next climb I do. To the top my good man.
M

[lizardbiker]

I should be back online Monday - I'll let you know how we hold up!

[lizardbiker]

Forgot to mention - I also have 172.5 crank arms vs the normal 170. Gives just a little more torque if you don't mind spinning a slightly larger circle.

[megale3]

Forgot to mention - I also have 172.5 crank arms vs the normal 170. Gives just a little more torque if you don't mind spinning a slightly larger circle.
Your like that guy that has the big truck! You compensating for somethin brotha? :lol:
M

[BFSpin]

Liz, have a blast this weekend! I'll look forward to hearing all about your trip. . .

Ride safe and may you climb like a mountain goat :mrgreen:

Beth

[lizardbiker]

Forgot to mention - I also have 172.5 crank arms vs the normal 170. Gives just a little more torque if you don't mind spinning a slightly larger circle.
Your like that guy that has the big truck! You compensating for somethin brotha? :lol:
M

You know what they say... big crank, little ... :shock:

[lizardbiker]

Liz, have a blast this weekend! I'll look forward to hearing all about your trip. . .

Ride safe and may you climb like a mountain goat :mrgreen:

Beth
Thanks Beth! I definitely have to say that this was my most challenging ride yet. I think the only thing missing from the ride was hail and snow. Other than that we had it all. I definitely learned a lot of things to do and not to do when I do the Quadzilla. Only one other person showed up for the ride and he was an experienced ultra rider, so I was able to pick up some great tips. The biggest difference was that he packed much lighter - I was experimenting with foods to use for the ADK540, so was carrying food for the entire day while the other rider picked up what he needed along the route at the control points. With the amount of climbs on the ride (49,420ft) extra weight = big squirrel and a really sore buttock region from carrying it all in a camelback as opposed to the panniers the other rider used. I'll start a ride description in a fresh post.

[lizardbiker]

Day 1: We got up at 4:00 to get ready for a 5:00 start in Quakertown, PA. The control points were Point Jervis, NY, Hancock, NY, stopping in Binghamton NY. By the time we got to the mountains, it was hot and sunny, getting into the 90's. The scenery was absolutely fantastic, but didn't want to stop for pictures although I brought the camera. On the last big 2 mile descent about 20 miles from the final control point I was doing my best to get one last burst of speed in before having to stop and rig for dark. At the bottom of the descent at around 45+ mph I nailed a crater in the road and blew BOTH tires. Luckily I was able to stop with the bike still rightside up. As I was replacing the tubes (luckily I actually carried 2 tubes for this ride which I normally don't do) a nice old overly helpful man came out. He kept grabbing the wheel to help me, knocking the tube back off. I kept politely asking him to just leave the wheel alone, but he thought he was being helpful. Finally managed to get the front wheel on and inflated, then we had the same game on the rear wheel. Unfortunately he grabbed the wheel just as I was shooting in the CO2 and caused it to slip off. Didn't get a full inflation on the rear wheel, but unfortunately I only brought two CO2 cartridges so I had to try to ride gingerly to the motel. I thanked the old man for his help and off I rode - got within 5 miles when it finally flatted. The rules of the ride are you have to make it to each control point on your own - no help is allowed. So I walked the rest of the way. Got to the motel about 11:00. The other rider got in about 15 minutes before me from misreading the cue sheet and getting slightly lost. So we both had a good first day. Luckily the drop bags were there and I was able to refresh my tube and CO2 supplies. Weary from the climbs and the heat we decided to sleep in until 4:00 and started again at 5:00. Total miles so far 220.2

Day 2 took us on a relatively flat trip to Sayre, NY before hitting the mountains again in the Pennsyvania Grand Canyon - control points were in Wellsboro, PA, Mill Hall, PA and stopping for the night in Lewisburg. God heard our prayers to not nail us with heat during the mountain climbs, so instead we had a downpour for the majority of the climbs. My gps got waterlogged for the last 20 miles of the ride but was able to dry it out and it worked again the next day. Got to the motel a little earlier - around 10:30 with a total of 439.5 miles completed.

Day 3 We got up again at 4:00 and hit the road at 5:00. This day started out cooler but with thick fog. It eventually baked off and got back up into the 90's with threats of thunderstorms. Control points were in Millersburg, Denver and finally back in Quakertown. Shorter route, but lots of those short steel Pennsylvania hills that keep you from getting into a good rhythm. About 20 miles out the threat of a thunderstorm turned into one with major gusts, lightening and all kinds of miscellaneous stuff blowing into me, like branches and road debris. Got to the final Control Point about 8:15 soaking wet again, but happy to have finished. Total miles 628.7

Got a quick bite to eat while chatting with the director of the ride. Great guy to have continued with the event even with only two people showing up. Four registered, but two dropped before starting. He said he's going to see about getting the ride UMCA sanctioned as a RAAM qualifier.

Drove home last night and got some sleep. Unpacked this morning already jotting down lessons learned for next year.

[like2bike]

Lizard what a great recap of your ride. Sorry to hear about blowing both tires but glad you had two spare tubes and you were able to eventually get to your hotel.

I must ask you: what kind of saddle do you have on that Canondale bike? Anyone who can ride 630 miles in three days must feel pretty good about his saddle. :D

Nice job and I'm glad you had a successful journey. Rest easy today and enjoy your fruits of labor. We're cooking burgers later if you want to come up to the 'Burgh, our door is open!

[lizardbiker]

Lizard what a great recap of your ride. Sorry to hear about blowing both tires but glad you had two spare tubes and you were able to eventually get to your hotel.

I must ask you: what kind of saddle do you have on that Canondale bike? Anyone who can ride 630 miles in three days must feel pretty good about his saddle. :D

Nice job and I'm glad you had a successful journey. Rest easy today and enjoy your fruits of labor. We're cooking burgers later if you want to come up to the 'Burgh, our door is open!

Thanks for the invite, but my DW is on her way back from her mother's house on Long Beach Island and we haven't seen each other since Thursday so we have a few days of hugging to catch up on :wink:

I have a Selle Italia SLK - took years of experimenting with saddles before I found the perfect saddle for me - when I was spec'ing out the Six13 I had my LBS put an SLK on it rather than the standard saddle that normally comes with it. That and lots of A&D ointment throughout the ride helped keep the bottomside happy :oops:

[BFSpin]

Wooooohooo, Lizard! Impressive ride, impressive determination - hope you're feeling mighty proud of yourself!

While I love riding alone, I'm not sure that even if I could do a ride of that length and depth that I could enjoy doing it alone. Doubly impressive, Liz!

I'm planning to ride with a Mechanicsburg group Saturday morning (High School out to King's Gap - to the top, of course - and back). Wanna come out and play?

[lizardbiker]

What time do you expect to be up at King's Gap? I was thinking of doing a little ride on Saturday morning - might be able to time the ride to bump into your group at Kings Gap. Wonderful climb and descent now that the road is repaved!

[BFSpin]

The ride leaves Mech. HS at 8:00; can't really say when we'll get there. Pace should be 16-17 or so, roughly 25 miles out to KG . . . you're welcome to join up with the group; congenial bunch.

Beautiful climb, isn't it? That road is fantastic. And a quick stop at the little general store at the bottom is a required part of the ride.

B

[lizardbiker]

I'm about 20 miles from KG - I'll see if I can get out for a morning ride - Double Whiskey Springs and a King's Gap is a good way to start the day. It'll also test how the legs recovered from last weekend!

[BFSpin]

A Sunday option (which I can't get to this week) - another group is leaving Mech. HS at 8, doing a triple threat: up the mountain Rt 233, King's Gap, and Whiskey Springs.

This is another steady group of experienced cyclists - reasonable, too. No twitchy stuff, no big egos. I rode with them all winter, a steady bunch.

B

[lizardbiker]

Can't do Sunday either, but I'll definitely give Saturday a shot. If I leave my house around 8:00 and do a recovery style ride, I should be in the King's Gap vicinity about the same time as your group. Maybe even check out the little store - been doing King's Gap for years, but never stopped at the general store.

[lizardbiker]

Got a later start - left the house at 8:40 but got to the top of King's Gap by 9:50. Saw a couple groups of cyclists on the way, but didn't see you. If by chance I went by, I was wearing a Patriotic jersey today. Made REALLY awesome time one the way back home (16.8 avg from home to the top of KG, 25.9 from the top back home). The bike and I felt weightless after last weeks big ride with the camelback and a whole days worth of food, clothing, etc.

Oh well - maybe well cross paths at the Tour de Cure. I'll be doing the 100k with my wife and older son & we'll be wearing Team Gold's Gym Carlisle shirts.

[like2bike]

Got a later start - left the house at 8:40 but got to the top of King's Gap by 9:50. Saw a couple groups of cyclists on the way, but didn't see you. If by chance I went by, I was wearing a Patriotic jersey today. Made REALLY awesome time one the way back home (16.8 avg from home to the top of KG, 25.9 from the top back home). The bike and I felt weightless after last weeks big ride with the camelback and a whole days worth of food, clothing, etc.

Oh well - maybe well cross paths at the Tour de Cure. I'll be doing the 100k with my wife and older son & we'll be wearing Team Gold's Gym Carlisle shirts.

Cheeze Laweez 16.8 up and 25.9 down??? DH and I did 50 yesterday and our avg was 13.2! I don't have any hope of ever riding with you and Beth!!

What a great ride--I hope you and Beth meet up at the Tour de Cure!

[lizardbiker]

I think it was just that I felt so light after carrying much more gear with me during the big ride last weekend, and knowing that I was only going 40 miles vs. 629 allowed me to bump it up a bit. Plus I was trying to hurry up to try catching up with Beth's group then get back home to give my son's friend a ride home after a sleep over.

The terrain in this area can literally change your overall average by +/- 10 mph and trying to fit a ride into a busy schedule can sometimes compensate for the terrain :o)

[BFSpin]

Plus I was trying to hurry up to try catching up with Beth's group then get back home to give my son's friend a ride home after a sleep over.

The terrain in this area can literally change your overall average by +/- 10 mph and trying to fit a ride into a busy schedule can sometimes compensate for the terrain :o)

. . . except Beth wasn't with the group (still pouting a little about that, in fact.)

While I had big ideas of how this ride was going to just fit into my overwhelmingly busy day, the reality was a bit different. On top of all that I had going on already, I discovered Friday that I had let my van's inspection run out - back in April. Duh. I've never done that before, and really didn't want to deal with the potential $100. + fine if I got caught. So that took priority Saturday a.m.

I managed a solo quick and dirty 20 mile, 17 avg loop down to E-town and back up through Hershey; just enough to say "hey" to the cows and to clear the brain.

Liz is dead-on about the terrain around here. On this side of the river, there are no "flat stretches", at least nothing that goes on for more than a mile or so. Almost all rollers, all the time, with a variety of short, steep kickers. What I like about the west shore (Liz's side - ahhhh, the great west shore/east shore debate continues), are the long flats, and lengthy climbs. Very different riding rhythms in this area.

Another day, Liz!

Beth

[lizardbiker]

. . . except Beth wasn't with the group (still pouting a little about that, in fact.)

While I had big ideas of how this ride was going to just fit into my overwhelmingly busy day, the reality was a bit different. On top of all that I had going on already, I discovered Friday that I had let my van's inspection run out - back in April. Duh. I've never done that before, and really didn't want to deal with the potential $100. + fine if I got caught. So that took priority Saturday a.m.

I managed a solo quick and dirty 20 mile, 17 avg loop down to E-town and back up through Hershey; just enough to say "hey" to the cows and to clear the brain.

Liz is dead-on about the terrain around here. On this side of the river, there are no "flat stretches", at least nothing that goes on for more than a mile or so. Almost all rollers, all the time, with a variety of short, steep kickers. What I like about the west shore (Liz's side - ahhhh, the great west shore/east shore debate continues), are the long flats, and lengthy climbs. Very different riding rhythms in this area.

Another day, Liz!

Beth

I agree - car inspections are important. You're lucky you didn't get caught!!!

Oh well... Maybe we'll cross paths Saturday on the Tour de Cure. I'll be doing the 100k with DW & #1 son back from college. We'll be wearing yellow Team Gold's Gym Carlisle tee shirts. Also here's a pic of the three of us at King's Gap during the 2005 Tour de Cure. Other than the shirts, we won't look much different this year. Hope to see you there!!!!

[love2spin]

Just updating you all. My hubby and I have purchased the compact. I will let you all know if my climbing improves. Actually lately I have been climbing pretty well. But, I have noticed my chain slipping and isn't a smooth transition from one gear to the next.

Can't wait to try out my new compact.

thanks for alllllll your advice.

love2spin

[Pink]

I don't have any hope of ever riding with you and Beth!!


You'd fit right in with the Pinks. Maybe one of these days....

[like2bike]

You can bet on it, Pink! We'll get together eventually! Sooner than later--and I can't wait! :)

[lizardbiker]

Just updating you all. My hubby and I have purchased the compact. I will let you all know if my climbing improves. Actually lately I have been climbing pretty well. But, I have noticed my chain slipping and isn't a smooth transition from one gear to the next.

Can't wait to try out my new compact.

thanks for alllllll your advice.

love2spin
How many miles on your chain? Cables? Last time you cleaned & waxed your chain? They could all contribute to chain skipping and rough shifting - not fun during a climb.

[love2spin]

Funny you should ask that.:) After putting on the compact and riding about 61 miles. I kept hearing something not quite right. You know these things about your bike, like a car. We replaced my chain and my cables. Good as new and by the way....I love my compact. Climbing hills just like the 'ole days.
Honesty, can't say it is one or the other that made the difference....but it's alllllllll good now.:grin:
Rode 150 miles last weekend....loved every minute of it.8)

thanks everyone:D