New F6 seems to think I'm superman.

[Lewis]

First ride last night with a new Polar F6. I configured it according to my age, weight and height and opted for HR view as a % of max.

So sounds typical right?

Well on a two hour ride, with some nice long climbs, it indicated that I was working at 91% mhr.

I allowed the unit to use its default resting and max numbers for me (as noted above - based on age, height and weight) , should I....

Reduce the age, being as I perform like a 20 yr old on speed (which would change my rhr a touch and my mhr a bit more than a touch)... OR...

Tweak the mhr setting to a higher number...

(prior to this hrm, I was using a F2, and figuring my approx % in my swiss cheese brain, my max hr is 185 +/-, my resting hr is 58, I am 5'8" weight 144 pounds and am 45 years old)

[joyofspin]

This is why I ride with numbers and not percents.

I'd keep the age info and change your MHR and VO2 etc if you know that info.

If you want me to take a look tomorrow, not a problem.

[Lewis]

This is why I ride with numbers and not percents.

I'd keep the age info and change your MHR and VO2 etc if you know that info.

If you want me to take a look tomorrow, not a problem.

Thanks, I'll start with the mhr and see how it reacts tommorrow. I'd like to tweak it to allow me to read as pcts, but if the firmware is inaccurate, I'll go back to numbas.


See you tomm!

[JohnNYC]

Lewis,

(I'm almost afraid to write anything in this thread because I'm sure Todd will question anything I say. Taking a deep breath and doing so anyway... :) )

Remember that the age-related formula is based on the average of a wide range of fitness levels. If you're even reasonably fit, it's not going to be accurate for you. I have had to adjust my HRM a few times to make it more accurate for me.

The only way to know your true MHR is by taking a scientific test. But you might be able to get it reasonably close by a non-scientific method. This was explained to me by an MI at one of my worksthops. I took her advice and reset my MHR based on the results. The % numbers now seem to reflect my perceived exertion, so I'm comfortable relying on them.

Before I say this, please note that I'm only repeating what someone told me. I don't claim to be an expert in this field, nor am I a medical professional. Feel free to take this advice or ignore it. :)

So...here's what she told me to do. I might not get it exactly right, but probably close enough. Warm up on the bike for a good 10 minutes or so...then do a full out sprint. The goal is to get your HR as high as you can get it. When you've finished, take a look at that highest number you reached. That is likely your 92% point. Refer to the HR chart in the instructor manual and find which row that number appears as 92% and use those numbers.

As I said, once I did this, I adjusted my MHR in my monitor and the percentages make much more sense to me now. They feel right.

By the way, I think it's interesting you're going from BPM to %. I just recently made the opposite switch.

Cheers,

John

[Todd S]

What John said.... :)

[JohnNYC]

What John said.... :)

Not quite what I expected, but I'll take it! :D

[Lewis]

I wanted to see my %, having only had the capabilities of HR when spinning in classes, and not having owned a more function laden monitor...

I know my all out sprint hr, so I can tweak them to 100 pct max and adjust it for tomorrow, and see how it goes. Worse comes to worse, I'll go back to the hr display and just deal with it.

[like2bike]

John, you have arrived! :)

[JohnNYC]

John, you have arrived! :)

LOL! I'm pinching myself to see if I'm really awake. :lol:

[Todd S]

I wanted to see my %, having only had the capabilities of HR when spinning in classes, and not having owned a more function laden monitor...

I know my all out sprint hr, so I can tweak them to 100 pct max and adjust it for tomorrow, and see how it goes. Worse comes to worse, I'll go back to the hr display and just deal with it.

If you've been watching HR for a long time, I'd use 'highest number you've ever seen' and figure that's somewhere between 95 and 100 percent of your max and call that close enough.

[Lewis]

Yeah, just looking to keep the brain shut down, but want data!

[veespin]

Reduce the age, being as I perform like a 20 yr old on speed (which would change my rhr a touch and my mhr a bit more than a touch)... OR...


Didn't you say you were....on speed, that is.

I'm pretty sure that amphetamines give you a significant rise in your maximum heart rate.

It might be that you need to calibrate it on the fly to perceived exertion rather than with a formula.

Vivienne

[Lewis]

Didn't you say you were....on speed, that is.

I'm pretty sure that amphetamines give you a significant rise in your maximum heart rate.

It might be that you need to calibrate it on the fly to perceived exertion rather than with a formula.

Vivienne

Actually, once you've taken them for a while your heart rate returns close to the original. My resting heart rate is just about where it was pre-meds, from what i remember. I hate using the word "amphetamines", it makes me feel like a tweaker. Prior to meds, I wouldnt have been able to concentrate well enough to calibrate my hrm, so its worth it. Hey what was your question? I said I'm cold, what are you deaf? DO you sell pajamas for goldfish:roll:

[veespin]

Hey what was your question? I said I'm cold, what are you deaf? DO you sell pajamas for goldfish:roll:

I see what you mean. Take another one....take a handful.

I'll have a few, while you're at it....I have a bunch of ironing to do.

Vivienne

[Lewis]

not that you're serious..but you wouldn't believe the lectures one gets when you are given these meds. The doctor (who you have to see once a month, every month - no refills permitted) to the pharmacist - do not share these meds with anyone under any circumstances.

I never tell anyone I know that i take them, it seems everyone thinks they are ADD/ADHD, and regardless a lot of people really really want speed.

To take them daily, kinda stinks, sometimes I skip a dose and enjoy a appetite!

And a lot of people would think, wow...some problem.

[veespin]

not that you're serious..but you wouldn't believe the lectures one gets when you are given these meds. The doctor (who you have to see once a month, every month - no refills permitted) to the pharmacist - do not share these meds with anyone under any circumstances.

I never tell anyone I know that i take them, it seems everyone thinks they are ADD/ADHD, and regardless a lot of people really really want speed.

To take them daily, kinda stinks, sometimes I skip a dose and enjoy a appetite!

And a lot of people would think, wow...some problem.

Actually I do....believe, that is. It's the War On Drugs, you see....which looks more like a war on people, if you ask me. Imagine what it'd be like if you had to live with severe pain every day and run the same gauntlet for OxyContin for a bit of relief.

I do regret the disappearance of Ephedra and the old Herbalife, though. Many a quarterly payroll tax return (and 3 weeks worth of ironing, sorting out the basement and a run around the block) has been done in the veespin household on a coupla those bad boys.

Vivienne

[neil]

Much like Lewis, I've been looking for a way of estimating my true max heart rate (without going to the expense of lab tests).

My age-calculated MHR is 179, and that data is stored in my HR monitor. But after 45 min of an IDC class, my watch tells me that my MHR at the highest point has usually been over 100%, and the average is anything from 90-98%. But whilst I feel tired after 45 mins, I don't feel completely exhausted, and can still talk at all times, so I figured my true MHR is somewhere above 179.

After a bit of Googling, I found a 'maximal treadmill stress test' at www.training2run.com. I followed that test, and eventually, at an incline of 15% and speed of 5.5mph, my HR hovered around 195bpm, touching 199 very briefly. But I could still talk (to myself - must have looked a bit strange) between breaths, and I decided to stop after 6 mins at that pace - although I could have continued - as my HR was pretty steady. I would put my RPE at about 8.5-9, so I'm taking somewhere around 195-200bpm as my true HR max and will adjust my HR monitor accordingly.

neil

[lizardbiker]

I have an F6, and it has the heart rates pretty close as I'm definitely feeling it when I'm at 90%+ MHR
The only issue I have with it is how it calculates calories burned. If I'm using it while on an ArcTrainer or any treadmill and input my age & weight, the F6 is always low by about 1/2 what the other equipment is saying.

BTW - have you played with the artwork on your F6? I customized mine to have a lizard riding a bicycle (of course!)

[Lewis]

I would have to agree about the calories burned reading, but if you saw me, you'd understand why I don't really care...:)

Joy is (she won't admit it) the expert on the watches, it seems...joy? You with us?

[joyofspin]

I'm here. I am going to pose the question to my guys at polar. It's something I've always known and tell people to discount the equipment numbers by 50% anyway. I will try to get a better handle on it for all of you. Iwill get back with the response. - Joy

[JohnNYC]

I'm here. I am going to pose the question to my guys at polar. It's something I've always known and tell people to discount the equipment numbers by 50% anyway. I will try to get a better handle on it for all of you. Iwill get back with the response. - Joy

Great! I hope they have a good answer. I've wondered about it myself.

[joyofspin]

I really am not sure why the difference. The only information I have is basically the reliability and repeatability of our products, not the treadmill. So I can't compare them at all.


SCIENTIFIC DEVELOPMENT AND EVALUATION OF THE POLAR OWNCAL FEATURE

The energy expenditure assessment in Polar heart rate monitors is called the OwnCal (in M-series heart rate monitors and A5) or OwnCalS (in S-series heart rate monitors) and it is based on prediction equations developed and evaluated in a series of research projects. Polar Electro Oy started this research co-operation with the UKK Institute, Tampere, Finland in 1995. Later the Department of Human Biology at the University of Maastricht, The Netherlands, joined the project. The first project was a comparative study about energy expenditure assessment methods (Fogelholm et al. 1998). In this study doubly labeled water measurements were done in obese women and compared with Caltrac” accelerometer, Fitty3 pedometer, heart rate monitoring (Polar PE-3000), physical activity log and food diary. Heart rate, with individual HR-EE (energy expenditure) equations, gave an unbiased estimation of daily EE in obese females despite large individual errors in some cases. It was concluded that the critical points in using HR as a measure of total daily EE are (1) the choice of FLEX-point (HR discriminating sedentary and activity EE) and (2) the discrimination of activity vs. emotion related HR above the FLEX-point.

After the study described above, it was considered that the association between exercise energy expenditure and heart rate should be solved. A total of 86 women and men were measured on a bicycle ergometer and during walking in a graded exercise protocol to define the heart rate/energy expenditure -relation. As a result, generalizable gender specific regression equations including age, body weight and heart rate were developed for the energy expenditure assessment during exercise for adults (Hiilloskorpi et al. 1997,1999b). The reference measure for the EE in the laboratory was gas-analysis based on the Weir equation (1949). The prediction yielded r2 of 0.70 in walking. The mean deviation between the predicted and measured EE during walking was 0.4 kcal/min and the limits of agreement (mean±2SD) were between -4 and 3 kcal/min. In a validation study the measured EE was underestimated by 2.7% in women and overestimated by 6.5% in men on an average during walking. In cycling the corresponding values were over estimations by 5.4% and 18%, respectively. Despite the rather high overestimation in men in cycling, the obtained EE estimation accuracy was considered satisfactory. The accuracy was more than any other commercially available assessment method for field settings (activity recorders, accelerometers, pedometers) could report, and Polar adopted this for the technical development of the OwnCal feature.

After this basic study the regression equations developed have been cross-validated in a sample of 135 adults at the Cooper Institute for Aerobics Research (unpublished). In this data the mean differences between the predicted and measured EE were 2% in women and 10% in men during incremental walking-jogging.

Further, the SmartEdge™ heart rate monitor prototype developed was used to study the accuracy of the energy expenditure equations on 50 adults in the field setting during walking-jogging and cycling protocols (Hiilloskorpi et al. 1998). The results showed that the mean difference between the energy expenditure predicted by Polar SmartEdge™ equations and the measured (Cosmed K4) energy expenditure was in females during cycling and walking -2.5 kcal/min and in males in cycling -1.2 kcal/min and in walking -1.1 kcal/min. In two thirds of the subjects the predicted energy expenditure differed from the measured value by less than 15% in women and in men by less than 14 % in cycling and 12% in walking. The difference between the gas analyzers (Medikro in the laboratory, Cosmed in the field measurements) confused the interpretation of these results and partly explained the underestimation in both genders in this study (Hiilloskorpi et al. 1999a). However, based on the results it was concluded that despite this underestimation, the EE equations built in SmartEdge™ provide an estimate of exercise EE that is satisfactorily accurate in healthy adults.

The OwnCal equations have been further validated in two studies. Altogether 40 healthy adults were measured on treadmill and on cycle ergometer at the Paavo Nurmi Centre, Turku, Finland (Kapanen et al. 2000). The equations were validated on heart rate levels 120-165 bpm. In men the mean difference between the measured and estimated EE was about 2 kcal/min in cycling and about 1 kcal/min in walking-running. In women the corresponding values were less than 0.5 kcal/min both in cycling and in walking-running. In all other cases except for in women during walking-jogging, the SmartEdge™ prediction values were slight overestimations.

In another study of over 100 adults at the Sports Science Institute of South-Africa, Cape Town (Keytel et al., in press), the SmartEdge™ EE equations were shown to predict EE at lower exercise intensities (<10 kcal/min) with a reasonable accuracy (the mean deviation 1.6 kcal/min).

Because the OwnCal development was focused on less fit to moderately fit individuals, the next step was to update the EE estimation calculation to be more accurate in highly fit individuals/ athletes. This resulted in the development of OwnCalS. OwnCalS estimates EE from exercise heart rate and individual HRmax and VO2max (measured or predicted values). The development group consisted of 105 20-59 year old men and women (data collected in collaboration with the Cooper Institute, Dallas, Texas). The developed model was further validated on 101 men and women (data collected in collaboration with the UKK Institute, Tampere, Finland). All subjects went through a maximal treadmill test with continuous heart rate measurement and respiratory gas analysis. In the validation data, the error of estimate (mean+SD) for OwnCalS was -0.7+1.3 and -0.3+0.8 kcal/min and standard error of estimate 1.4 and 0.9 kcal/min in men and women, respectively (Kinnunen et al. 2000). Thus, good accuracy for EE estimation was obtained in OwnCalS.

Further, the Polar OwnCal has been developed for weight management purposes and it´s accuracy has been validated in 40 overweight (males and females) adults (Hills et al., unpublished 2003). This study showed that at the constant walking speed of 5.6 km/h during 4 min workout the Polar OwnCal in WM4 did measure 26.8 (3.3) kcal on an average (SD) and the gas analysis correspondingly 30(6.3) kcal.

In the very latest development of Polar OwnCal HRsit (heart rate at non-active sitting position) has been added to make energy expenditure at low end (e.g. low exercise intensities) more individual. Also, in the AXN500 and 700 models energy expenditure (OwnCal) is corrected with an altitude whenever the feature is used above 750 m sea level. OwnCal has been validated in Swiss adults.Based on the results researchers concluded that during acute exposure to moderate altitude the accuracy of AXN-estimates for EE is good. At high altitude, using AXN-formula before acclimatization might be less accurate in some individuals (Mäder et al. 2004).

In Physical Activity and Health: a Report of the Surgeon General (U.S. Department of Health and Human Services 1996) it is stated that activity leading to an increase in daily energy expenditure of approximately 150 kcal/day, equivalent to about 1000 kcal/week, is associated with substantial health benefits. OwnCal provides a useful alternative for assessing exercise dose in kilocalories.


References

Fogelholm M, Hiilloskorpi H, Laukkanen R, Oja P, Van Marken Lichtenbelt W, Westerterp K. Assessment of physical activity and energy expenditure in overweight women. Med Sci Sports Exerc 30(8), 1191-1197, 1998.

Hiilloskorpi H, Fogelholm M, Laukkanen R, Oja P, Natri A, Mänttäri A. Factors affecting the relation between heart rate and energy expenditure. International Congress of Movement and Sport in the Life-Cycle of Woman, Lahti, Finland. Book of Abstracts, nr 31, 1997.

Hiilloskorpi H, Fogelholm M, Laukkanen R, Pasanen M, Oja P. Validation of gender spesific equations for predicting energy expenditure during exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc 30(5), 330, 1998.

Hiilloskorpi H, Mänttäri A, Fogelholm M, Pasanen M, Laukkanen R. The comparison between three different gas-analysers. Med Sci Sports Exerc 31(5), nr 1787, 1999a.

Hiilloskorpi H, Fogelholm M, Laukkanen R, Pasanen M, Oja P, Mänttäri A, Natri A. Factors affecting the relation between heart rate and energy expenditure during exercise. Int J Sports Med, 20, 438-443, 1999b.

Kapanen J, Laukkanen R, Hiilloskorpi H, Fogelholm M, Heinonen O. Estimation of EE during exercise by equation based on heart rate. Med Sci Sports Exerc 32(5), nr 984, 2000.

Keytel L, Goedecke J, Noakes T, Hiilloskorpi H, Laukkanen R. Van Der Merwe L, Lambert V. Prediction of energy expenditure from heart rate monitoring during submaximal exercise. Journal of Sport Sciences (in press, 2004).

Kinnunen H, Nissilä S. Estimation of exercise energy expenditure from heart rate and aerobic capacity. Proceedings of 5th Annual Congress of the ECSS, Jyväskylä, Finland, 19-23 July 2000, p 395.

U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Physical Activity and Health: A Report of the Surgeon General. Atlanta, GA: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Chronic Disease Prevention and Health Promotion, 1996, p 147.

Weir J. New methods for calculating metabolic rate with special reference to protein metabolism. J Physiol 109, 1-9, 1949.

[SpinningInPrescott]

Holy crap, Batman!