Limits to performance measurement?

[Julibird]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/06/health/nutrition/06Best.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5087&em&en=cbae977a01b4186f&ex=1197262800

Notice the story about the pole vaulter.

What if staring at wattage can limit what some can actually do? What if? Who's to say. We can be scientific and gather empirical data on performance, but how to ever quantify what the mind is capable of?

Discuss.

[Todd S]

That's the same argument some make for training with power but not racing with power (or just using the power meter during the race to record the effort but not use it for pacing, etc.).

But during competition, most coaches would probably say that improper pacing (something easily cured by knowing your limits, watching a power meter, and sticking to your pacing strategy) is a much more common problem than underperforming due to over adherance to a power pacing strategy. Like everything else in life, there's a happy medium somewhere in there for everybody.

If nobody even bothered to measure how high the bar was on the pole vaulters best attempt, he would have never even known he set a PR.

[SpinningInPrescott]

Thanks for posting the article, Julibird! Very interesting and though provoking!

I'm going to try some of the techniques out on my next long effort.

:) PS

[Lewis]

I use dissociation techniques when I ride. I don't check HR, and I cover my powermeter. My coach watches telemetry and comments but seldom with any numbers while I am riding. Afterwards, data is downloaded to the laptop and we review the ride but first she asks me how I felt on the first x miles, at the transition to the hill, up the hill etc. Then she shows me the telemetry. I believe most of what was written here. The brain is at times too powerful, and we need to dumb it down.

Brain?, it too needs to shut up and ride.

[Todd S]

Two comments:

1) Take most fitness related stuff you read in the popular press with a grain of salt.

2) Most good, very good, and elite athletes tend to be highly associative, not dissociative. The best seem to tune out all distractions and remember every detail about the event and how they felt while it was happening. The MOPers and BOPers tend to play mind games and use mental tricks to get them through the discomfort.

I thought everyone here was firmly in the 'mind-body connection' camp. :)

[Todd S]

I use dissociation techniques when I ride. I don't check HR, and I cover my powermeter. My coach watches telemetry and comments but seldom with any numbers while I am riding. Afterwards, data is downloaded to the laptop and we review the ride but first she asks me how I felt on the first x miles, at the transition to the hill, up the hill etc. Then she shows me the telemetry. I believe most of what was written here. The brain is at times too powerful, and we need to dumb it down.

Brain?, it too needs to shut up and ride.

Unless you're racing, what does telemetry tell your coach that she can't get through post ride download and analysis? There's so much you can learn about yourself through constant, situational awareness of power and RPE. The breakthroughs in performance, the 'good days', come when you see unusually high power numbers at relatively low RPE. A change in approach or tactics is required when the opposite occurs. If what you're doing is not that important on one of those 'bad days', it's often best to just pack it in and come back stronger and fresher on another day.

My suggestion if you want to get really fast... Learn to analyze your own files and performance both real time and after each session/race and let your coach worry more about the macro stuff - the big picture stuff like training plans, proper taper, tactics, etc.

My 2 cents...

[Cheeze]

I agree with Todd you have to take articles like this with a grain of salt. But they lead to great discussion ............

I agree the body follows the mind - and sometimes the mind get's in the way of the body (Don't let your mind talk your body out of what it knows it can do). So I guess what the the pole vaulter was dealing with was a mind imposed plateau or limiter.

So ........... you have to trick the mind. That's why we have stuff like: intervals; visualizations; periodization; working out on different equipment for a while; crosstraining; disassociation; The Secret; etc - stuff that distracts the mind and/or makes it "buy into" success.

We had a gent at our Y who was stuck at a weight with his bench press until we put on heavier collars without his knowing. Looking back at the workouts he was doing the same thing with the same weights twice a week for several months. His mind had locked up and his training was fortifying the minds position.

Since the mind tends to focus on the bad stuff and the pain - it subsequently is protecting the body. So I agree we will always be capable of doing more than we are doing - and to do more we have to learn more about how to put our minds into "a happy place" when we train or exercise.

If you have maxed out on your current training - find a new way to train. Don't associate with negative people or people who set limits on you. Mind/body - where have I heard that before?

And if you don't believe the mind has a strong effect on the body - talk to a cancer survivor!

Salty Cheeze

[JFK]

When we conduct VO2max testing, we use verbal encouragement to keep a subject going, asking them to hold on for "30 more seconds" (or whatever). Most people finish feeling completely spent, but a short while later they start saying "you know, I probably could have gone longer/harder/faster..."

But at the end of the test, they were clearly maxed out, and when retested (obviously not after increased or decreased training, etc.) most people's results are very close. And they still feel that "maybe.."

The physiological differences between any group of athletes at the top of their sport are generally pretty darned small. So things like "hunger," that need to win, that ability to put everything else aside are likely to be the differences.

If all that mattered were the watts you could produce or how long you could produce high wattage, we wouldn't have to have races. We could armchair quarterback the events from the lab. :rolleyes:

[AC]

As a quick side note, the author of the article, Gina Kolata, is also an avid Spinning enthusiast and outdoor cyclist. She wrote the book, "Ultimate Fitness", which is kind of an homage to Spinning and other kinds of indoor training.

My favorite example of training vs. competition is Payton Manning and Ryan Leaf. When they were about to be drafted, there was a huge debate about which one was better. Same size physically, arm strength equal, foot speed equal, eyesight equal...just about everything in the training combine was a toss up. One drafted first, the other right after. 10 years later, one is enroute to a hall of fame career and the other has been out of football for about 6 years after bouncing around with a few teams who thought they could "fix" him. The only difference really was the grey matter between the ears.

So in the mind/body context, as an instructor, if you actually know what proper effort feels like, how can I train you to adapt to that feeling and want to improve from there? My goofy answer is to make it seem as much fun as possible.

[like2bike]

My goofy answer is to make it seem as much fun as possible.

I love that answer! :)

[SpinBob]

I love Gina Kolata articles and have always wondered what kind of sense of humor her parents must have (Gina Kolata, Piña Colada). I know she has a sense of humor about it.

[lizardbiker]

Great article and great comments - the mind is a powerful thing and can make your body do amazing things. There have been ultra cyclists who have completed RAAM with a broken hip, and there have been great cyclists who have abandoned shorter rides because they were tired or their (fill in any body part) hurt. Mental games as well as the will to win or at least finish are critical for any sport.

[Funhog]

I have used a technique similar to Paula Radcliffe - she counts her footfalls, I count my pedal strokes. I only do this on long climbs when I feel myself struggling. Is this dissociative or associative? In a way, it's both I guess. While doing it, I associate very closely with my pedal strokes, making sure they are smooth. It keeps me right in the present moment, whereas many dissociative techniques take you away from paying attention to the present. But I also disassociate with this mantra of numbers, to take my mind off the pain of the climb. I'm curious, how would you all describe this technique - associative or dissociative?

I did this for the first time many years ago when cycling solo around New Zealand with full panniers of gear (45 lbs), and had 20-mile passes to go over. I also sang Wizard of Oz songs to myself (don't ask me why, but that's what kept repeating in my head. I can honestly say, the Munchkins helped me over those passes)! In century rides, or just doing some of the long climbs here in the Rockies, I'll count 100 on the right, then 100 on the left, for 10 times each (which brings me to 2000). Then start over again. If it gets steep, I might do 100 seated on R, then L, then do 50 on R, L standing.

I have never done it in Spinning. It just never occurs to me, and without the visual of the top of the hill way off in the distance, I don't find the need to. I use other techniques, most of which are very associative.

Jennifer

[Julibird]

I have used a technique similar to Paula Radcliffe - she counts her footfalls, I count my pedal strokes. I only do this on long climbs when I feel myself struggling. Is this dissociative or associative? In a way, it's both I guess...Jennifer

Because because because because BECAUSE! ...the wonderful wizard of oz. What an image, Jen, you riding along on that seemingly impossible journey. What optimism. Wait a minute...you SOUND like Judy Garland too!

I think the counting mantra is almost a natural phenomenon of the mind. I guess it would actually be associative, because you are so in the present that you become the number mantra in a way.

When I began competing in middle distance as a young girl, I used to count my footstrikes, and coordinate my armswing and breath so that it all seemed to work in rhythm, sometime becoming aware of the strange feeling that my legs were flying and it seemed effortless. All I could hear was my breath, not the sounds or sights of the crowd. That was what I dissociated from, I guess - everyting outside of the immediate experience. At thirteen, I thought this was my own secret invention. I didn't know it was a "technique". That is why I think it must be natural. That state of being is one of my favorite kinds of experience.

Looking for that on my bike now.